Discussion:
Sale of Goods Act question - inconvenience caused by repair process
(too old to reply)
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 12:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?

I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?

They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.

Regards,

Mary
Richard McKenzie
2011-01-10 12:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.

I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 13:03:09 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??

Mary
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 13:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??

Mary
Richard McKenzie
2011-01-10 13:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Mary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.

Are you able to take the sim card out and put it in another phone. I
seen in yesterdays paper that Carphone Wharehouse sell a phone for 1p!
(although you have to buy top up of between £10-£20). I appreciate
that with a bog standard phone you may not be able to go onto the
internet etc but most of the lower performing phones still have the
ability of text, mp3, radio etc. I appreciate that this is not ideal.
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 14:35:17 UTC
Permalink
On Jan 10, 1:33 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.

I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back. Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase, and that it's deemed not to have
conformed to it at that time if it fails to do so up to 6 months
later. I bought the phone 4 months ago.

Carphone Warehouse have offered to send the phone for repair and even
to lend me a courtesy phone, which I appreciate. However, I am a
wheelchair user and want to cut down my number of journeys to the
store. If it weren't for that, I would have accepted their offer.

Of course, if they don't want to sell me a new one after they've given
me my money back, that's OK and I'll buy a replacement in another shop
nearby!

Mary
Richard McKenzie
2011-01-10 14:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 1:33 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back. Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase, and that it's deemed not to have
conformed to it at that time if it fails to do so up to 6 months
later. I bought the phone 4 months ago.
Carphone Warehouse have offered to send the phone for repair and even
to lend me a courtesy phone, which I appreciate. However, I am a
wheelchair user and want to cut down my number of journeys to the
store. If it weren't for that, I would have accepted their offer.
Of course, if they don't want to sell me a new one after they've given
me my money back, that's OK and I'll buy a replacement in another shop
nearby!
Mary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Given the time period you can only rescind the contract where there
has been a misrepresentation i.e. a misrepresentation made during the
formation of the contract.
Richard McKenzie
2011-01-10 14:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 1:33 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back. Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase, and that it's deemed not to have
conformed to it at that time if it fails to do so up to 6 months
later. I bought the phone 4 months ago.
Carphone Warehouse have offered to send the phone for repair and even
to lend me a courtesy phone, which I appreciate. However, I am a
wheelchair user and want to cut down my number of journeys to the
store. If it weren't for that, I would have accepted their offer.
Of course, if they don't want to sell me a new one after they've given
me my money back, that's OK and I'll buy a replacement in another shop
nearby!
Mary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Given the customer service of major retailers i belive Carphone
Wharehouse appear to be offering a better than average deal, with a
courtesy phone etc i believe that would how any court would view it
too.
Mark
2011-01-10 14:55:34 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:35:17 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 1:33 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back. Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase, and that it's deemed not to have
conformed to it at that time if it fails to do so up to 6 months
later. I bought the phone 4 months ago.
I think you are wrong here. You can reject the product if you have
not "accepted" it. Since you have had the product for 4 months and
used it then you have "accepted" it and your right to reject it is
over.

Within the 6 month period the onus is on the retailer to prove that
the phone did conform to contract and after this the onus is on you to
prove it didn't.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Carphone Warehouse have offered to send the phone for repair and even
to lend me a courtesy phone, which I appreciate. However, I am a
wheelchair user and want to cut down my number of journeys to the
store. If it weren't for that, I would have accepted their offer.
I'm sure if you explain this they will send and collect the phones via
a courier to save you going to the shop. But I do agree that they are
not being reasonable not just replacing the phone. It would save them
hassle as well as you.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
Peter Parry
2011-01-10 15:59:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:35:17 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back.
You don't.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase,
No it doesn't. Or at least not until the repair/replace option proves
impossible. 48A (2)(b)(ii) only applies only _after_ 48C (2)(b). The
whole of Part 5 A is a very confusingly written piece of legislation
which loops endlessly within itself.

You separate right to rejection under S35 is limited to a few weeks
after purchase in most cases and once lost by you "accepting" the
goods cannot be regained.
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 16:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:35:17 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back.
You don't.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase,
No it doesn't.  Or at least not until the repair/replace option proves
impossible.  48A (2)(b)(ii) only applies only _after_ 48C (2)(b).  The
whole of Part 5 A is a very confusingly written piece of legislation
which loops endlessly within itself.
Agreed. 48A(2b) gives a right to rescind "in accordance with" 48C. But
48C covers a right to require replacement or repair (1), what happens
if that's exercised (2), when it does not exist (3),
disproportionality between replacement and repair options (4) and
issues of reasonable crime and significant inconvenience (5).

Is it possible to unravel what the phrase "in accordance with" is
supposed to mean here?

Mary
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 16:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:35:17 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back.
You don't.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase,
No it doesn't.  Or at least not until the repair/replace option proves
impossible.  48A (2)(b)(ii) only applies only _after_ 48C (2)(b).  The
whole of Part 5 A is a very confusingly written piece of legislation
which loops endlessly within itself.
Agreed. 48A(2b) gives a right to rescind "in accordance with" 48C. But
48C covers a right to require replacement or repair (1), what happens
if that's exercised (2), when it does not exist (3),
disproportionality between replacement and repair options (4) and
issues of reasonable crime and significant inconvenience (5).
Is it possible to unravel what the phrase "in accordance with" is
supposed to mean here?
Ah - sorry Peter, I hadn't read your other post when I typed that.
Thanks very much for your efforts and help!

Mary
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 16:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 06:35:17 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hi, I've now had a better look at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the
Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regs 2002 which amended it.
I *think* I probably have the right to get my money back.
You don't.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Section 48A
says a buyer can rescind the sale contract if an item does not conform
to it at the time of purchase,
No it doesn't.  Or at least not until the repair/replace option proves
impossible.  48A (2)(b)(ii) only applies only _after_ 48C (2)(b).  The
whole of Part 5 A is a very confusingly written piece of legislation
which loops endlessly within itself.
Agreed. 48A(2b) gives a right to rescind "in accordance with" 48C. But
48C covers a right to require replacement or repair (1), what happens
if that's exercised (2), when it does not exist (3),
disproportionality between replacement and repair options (4) and
issues of reasonable crime and significant inconvenience (5).
I'm talking crap here. Sorry!

Mary
Brian Cryer
2011-01-10 14:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Post by Richard McKenzie
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
No, although the SOGA does mention 'a reasonable period' but is not
specific, two weeks appears to be the norm.
I was faced with a similar situation. I had a Nokia 5530 (it was
plagued with problems-having looked on the internet) so i traded it in
at carphone wharehouse for £80 and for £20 more i purchased a 5230
which has a bigger screen.- Hide quoted text -
Hi and thanks for this. Have you got chapter and verse for where the
Act mentions "a reasonable period" in the context of the time taken to
repair it when it has been found to be of unsatisfactory quality
because of lack of durability (s12(2))??
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
Mary- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Although i am not a solicitor i believe 2 weeks would be normal and
the courts would see it as such.
Are you able to take the sim card out and put it in another phone. I
seen in yesterdays paper that Carphone Wharehouse sell a phone for 1p!
(although you have to buy top up of between £10-£20). I appreciate
that with a bog standard phone you may not be able to go onto the
internet etc but most of the lower performing phones still have the
ability of text, mp3, radio etc. I appreciate that this is not ideal.
I would expect the Carphone Warehouse to lend a phone at zero cost while the
OP's phone is in for repair, at least that was my daughter's experience. It
would only be a very basic phone, but it would still be cheaper that buying
another one.
--
Brian Cryer
http://www.cryer.co.uk/brian
Peter Parry
2011-01-10 14:54:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 05:14:51 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
The Regulation gives you the right to ask for a replacement, and the
retailer the right to refuse it if the cost of replacement is greater
than the cost of repair. Practically, this means the retailer can
chose the remedy (and this was always the intention of the original EU
directive implemented by the SSGCR).

As far as what constitutes "significant inconvenience" there is no UK
definitive case. There are however a few from German High Courts
(which would influence but not bind courts here as they represent
interpretation of the same EU directive). In one case, leaving a
mother with young children waiting for repairs on a washing machine
for a month was felt to be quite reasonable so I wouldn't think a
fortnight for a mobile phone repair would be considered to be
unreasonable. That said most Carphone Warehouse shops have basic loan
phones they can give you while yours is being fixed.
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 15:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Parry
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 05:14:51 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
The Regulation gives you the right to ask for a replacement, and the
retailer the right to refuse it if the cost of replacement is greater
than the cost of repair.   Practically, this means the retailer can
chose the remedy (and this was always the intention of the original EU
directive implemented by the  SSGCR).
As far as what constitutes "significant inconvenience" there is no UK
definitive case.  There are however a few from German High Courts
(which would influence but not bind courts here as they represent
interpretation of the same EU directive).  In one case, leaving a
mother with young children waiting for repairs on a washing machine
for a month was felt to be quite reasonable so I wouldn't think a
fortnight for a mobile phone repair would be considered to be
unreasonable.  That said most Carphone Warehouse shops have basic loan
phones they can give you while yours is being fixed.
So far, I've got...

48A(2b)(ii) says I can rescind contract...under 48C...which says (1b)
I "may" rescind if (2a) I require neither repair nor replacement...by
virtue of 48B(3), which says I "must" not require repair or
replacement if it's impossible or disproportionate (rather than that I
may rescind).

Sorry but does that restrict the buyer's right to rescind to
circumstances where repair or replacement are impossible or
disproportionate?? If so, could someone please spell out the logic.
Many thanks!

Mary
Peter Parry
2011-01-10 16:23:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:58:33 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
So far, I've got...
48A(2b)(ii) says I can rescind contract...under 48C...which says (1b)
I "may" rescind if (2a) I require neither repair nor replacement...by
virtue of 48B(3), which says I "must" not require repair or
replacement if it's impossible or disproportionate (rather than that I
may rescind).
48A(2b)(ii) comes into effect if the goods cannot be repaired or
replaced. It ensures you are not left with nothing and that the
supplier is not left with exorbitant repair costs if replacement isn't
possible.

The "hierarchy of remedies" is :-

1. Repair or replace
2. If 1 is not possible - Rescind contract and refund/partial refund.

So, 48A(2b)(ii) gives you a right to rescind subject to 48C(1)..

48C(1)(b) allows you to require the supplier to rescind, but only if
the condition in subsection 48C(2) is satisfied. 48C(2) has two
parts.

48C(2)(a) condition is that 48(B)(3) applies. 48(B)(3) allows the
supplier to opt for refund if the cost of repair or replacement is
disproportionate when compared with refund. The wording isn't awfully
clear but what it prevents is you insisting upon a repair or
replacement when such a remedy would cost the supplier more than a
refund would.

That sub section doesn't apply to you.

48C(2)(b) condition is that if the supplier does nothing or takes an
unreasonable time over it you can rescind the contract. As the
supplier hasn't taken an unreasonable amount of time, and has
mitigated inconvenience by offering you a loan phone this section does
not apply.

You are therefore not entitled to a refund.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Sorry but does that restrict the buyer's right to rescind to
circumstances where repair or replacement are impossible or
disproportionate??
Yes - hopefully the description of the circular logic above helps -
you really need to draw a diagram to see it clearly but failing that a
large brandy and hot tea helps!
Mary Crewkerne
2011-01-10 18:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Parry
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:58:33 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
So far, I've got...
48A(2b)(ii) says I can rescind contract...under 48C...which says (1b)
I "may" rescind if (2a) I require neither repair nor replacement...by
virtue of 48B(3), which says I "must" not require repair or
replacement if it's impossible or disproportionate (rather than that I
may rescind).
48A(2b)(ii) comes into effect if the goods cannot be repaired or
replaced.  It ensures you are not left with nothing and that the
supplier is not left with exorbitant repair costs if replacement isn't
possible.
The "hierarchy of remedies" is :-
1.  Repair or replace
2.  If 1 is not possible - Rescind contract and refund/partial refund.
So, 48A(2b)(ii) gives you a right to rescind subject to 48C(1)..
48C(1)(b) allows you to require the supplier to rescind, but only if
the condition in subsection 48C(2) is satisfied.  48C(2) has two
parts.
48C(2)(a)  condition is that 48(B)(3) applies.  48(B)(3) allows the
supplier to opt for refund if the cost of repair or replacement is
disproportionate when compared with refund.  The wording isn't awfully
clear but what it prevents is you insisting upon a repair or
replacement when such a remedy would cost the supplier more than a
refund would.
That sub section doesn't apply to you.
48C(2)(b) condition is that if the supplier does nothing or takes an
unreasonable time over it you can rescind the contract.  As the
supplier hasn't taken an unreasonable amount of time, and has
mitigated inconvenience by offering you a loan phone this section does
not apply.
You are therefore not entitled to a refund.
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Sorry but does that restrict the buyer's right to rescind to
circumstances where repair or replacement are impossible or
disproportionate??
Yes - hopefully the description of the circular logic above helps -
you really need to draw a diagram to see it clearly but failing that a
large brandy and hot tea helps!
Hi again and sincere thanks for this explanation, Peter. I think I
understand it now. It was how the wording of 48B(3) shaped its
relationship with 48C(2a) that was causing me a problem.

So basically all I've got to go on is that the repair and loan phone
option would cause me "significant inconvenience". Which, in fact if
perhaps not in law, it probably will. The only reason I'm kicking up a
fuss is that I'm going to a remote part of Ireland for somewhere
between 1 and 3 months, and won't be in my home town in England until
after I get back. If they agree to let me keep hold of the loan phone
until I do get back, that would be fine. Or if they did the repair
within 3-4 days I could just about manage a trip to the town where I
bought it to collect it - even if it would take me half a day!! I
thought it was rather nice of them to offer the loan phone.

But looking at 48B(5), "significant inconvenience" is to be determined
by the "nature" of the goods and the "purpose" for which they were
acquired. Not having to travel about all the bloody time was my main
purpose, although that probably wouldn't apply to most other
purchasers and mightn't stand up in court. (I haven't got a landline).

Can't say I was too enamoured of the young man who greeted me when I
first took the bust phone into the shop though. When I said I wished
to return it under the Sale of Goods Act, and would like a refund or
replacement, he asked whether the Sale of Goods Act said that if he
smashed his car up he could get the person who sold it to him to
replace it. I asked to speak to his manager and the whippersnapper
replied "we don't operate like that here" :-)

Modern times, eh? :-)

Mary
Ste
2011-01-10 18:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Parry
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 05:14:51 -0800 (PST), Mary Crewkerne
Post by Mary Crewkerne
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, Richard McKenzie
Sorry, forget my previous post. I have now found the Sale and Supply
of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, which amended the SoGA and
state that given the seller's failure to discharge, the buyer can make
the seller "repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a
reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the
buyer". However, it does seem to give me the right to get them to
replace rather than repair, and they've confirmed they have several
phones of the same model in stock. How would you advise??
The Regulation gives you the right to ask for a replacement, and the
retailer the right to refuse it if the cost of replacement is greater
than the cost of repair.   Practically, this means the retailer can
chose the remedy (and this was always the intention of the original EU
directive implemented by the  SSGCR).
As far as what constitutes "significant inconvenience" there is no UK
definitive case.  There are however a few from German High Courts
(which would influence but not bind courts here as they represent
interpretation of the same EU directive).  In one case, leaving a
mother with young children waiting for repairs on a washing machine
for a month was felt to be quite reasonable so I wouldn't think a
fortnight for a mobile phone repair would be considered to be
unreasonable.  That said most Carphone Warehouse shops have basic loan
phones they can give you while yours is being fixed.
We've had this issue before, though only in the hypothetical until
now.

The German case involved the woman having easy access to her mother's
washing machine, if I remember correctly. It may well be reasonable to
say that a person ought to use another mobile phone for a month, but
obviously sharing a mobile phone with someone else is not a viable
proposition in the same way as with a washing machine.

As I've said before, people like myself, who use smartphones for a
great deal more than just making and receiving phone calls, could not
do realistically do without it for any period of time at all, at least
not without investing in a range of new equipment, the total cost of
which would almost certainly exceed the cost of the smartphone device.
Peter Parry
2011-01-10 22:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ste
We've had this issue before, though only in the hypothetical until
now.
The German case involved the woman having easy access to her mother's
washing machine, if I remember correctly.
I don't believe so - but I've only seen a short summary of the case.
Post by Ste
It may well be reasonable to
say that a person ought to use another mobile phone for a month, but
obviously sharing a mobile phone with someone else is not a viable
proposition in the same way as with a washing machine.
As I've said before, people like myself, who use smartphones for a
great deal more than just making and receiving phone calls, could not
do realistically do without it for any period of time at all, at least
not without investing in a range of new equipment, the total cost of
which would almost certainly exceed the cost of the smartphone device.
The problem of course is that formally pursuing any "right" to rapid
repair or issue of a replacement phone will take many weeks longer
than the longest repair is likely to take.
Ste
2011-01-11 10:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Parry
Post by Ste
We've had this issue before, though only in the hypothetical until
now.
The German case involved the woman having easy access to her mother's
washing machine, if I remember correctly.
I don't believe so - but I've only seen a short summary of the case.
That is the best of my recollection from last time we discussed this
issue. Anyway, I would think it ought to be pretty obvious that she
must have had access to another means of washing clothes during the
month, even if that meant going to a laundrette (the costs of which
would be recoverable), or even washing them by hand (which I would
think would only be reasonable in the case of mothers who were not
working). No court decision could possibly stand, where the conclusion
was that it was reasonable for a whole family including young children
to wear unwashed clothes for a month.

Incidentally, do you have the case reference or a link to the site
where you saw the summary? I'll try and look into it again.
Post by Peter Parry
Post by Ste
It may well be reasonable to
say that a person ought to use another mobile phone for a month, but
obviously sharing a mobile phone with someone else is not a viable
proposition in the same way as with a washing machine.
As I've said before, people like myself, who use smartphones for a
great deal more than just making and receiving phone calls, could not
do realistically do without it for any period of time at all, at least
not without investing in a range of new equipment, the total cost of
which would almost certainly exceed the cost of the smartphone device.
The problem of course is that formally pursuing any "right" to rapid
repair or issue of a replacement phone  will take many weeks longer
than the longest repair is likely to take.
Indeed, but obviously if I were in that position I'd probably just go
and buy another one the moment the retailer said they could not
guarantee any timeframe for repair or replacement, or if they said it
would be more than a few days. Even though I'd be paying full whack,
I'd be able to recover some value by selling it second-hand/barely
used, probably leaving £100 discrepancy, which from my point of view
would be worth paying out of my own pocket, but which I would also
seek to recover from the retailer.

As I say, I use my mobile phone for so many functions (diary, task
list, notes, alarm clock, satnav, email and internet access, music
player, password storage, file transfer, and probably more - all of
course on top of the basic phone and phonebook functionality) that on
some occasions I would not be able to suffer without it for even a
day, at least not without some sort of financial loss or significant
inconvenience that would match or exceed the cost of replacing it out
of my own pocket. Even tools and devices that do all the essential
things separately would take at least several hours of time to go
shopping and purchase, plus at least a hundred pounds, and then
several hours more to transcribe over the necessary information. And
when the phone was returned to me, it could take several hours again
to transcribe all new or updated information back to the phone. All
this would have to be fitted in on top of work and other personal and
social obligations.

By comparison, purchasing a new phone of the same type could probably
be completed within the hour, and a combination of automatic online
synchonisation and personal backups (which are, of course,
incompatible with phones of a different kind) would mean it would be
back to normal probably within two hours.

That said, not everyone is in the position that I am in, but many
people certainly will be.

Roy H
2011-01-10 14:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse.
There's yer problem
F Murtz
2011-01-10 14:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mary Crewkerne
Hello, a quick question... I bought a mobile phone handset 3 months
ago from Carphone Warehouse. Its navigation button has stopped
working, so I am returning it under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The
store manager said that they could send it away to Nokia for repair,
but this could take a fortnight. That would inconvenience me greatly,
since I would be without a phone. Since it is they, not I, who have
breached the contract of sale, what should I do?
I would be happy to accept a replacement or refund right now. However,
if the damage to the phone and the time take to repair it cause me
losses and inconvenience, wouldn't they be liable?
They have confirmed to me that they have several of the same model in
stock.
Regards,
Mary
Watch they dont dampen the water damage markers and refuse to fix it
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