utility *scam* to be aware of

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

G***@googlemail.com

2008-12-13 00:37:29 UTC

I bought this house 2 years ago and took over the previous owner's gas
& electric supply. I recently received a letter saying prices were to
be increased by 35% and so was finally motivated to compare suppliers.
I'm pleased to say I have now switched to a cheaper supplier.

But in the process I realized the house was being charged for electric
at Economy 7 rate, despite there being no storage devices here that
draw power overnight. I have now requested the electric be changed to
a flat rate charge. God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.

Perhaps I'm just inherently dumb, but I'd certainly recommend folk to
check their electric charging structure and get it changed if they
happen to be on economy 7 but not using a significant amount
overnight.

Chris Blunt

2008-12-13 01:25:35 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by G***@googlemail.com
I bought this house 2 years ago and took over the previous owner's gas
& electric supply. I recently received a letter saying prices were to
be increased by 35% and so was finally motivated to compare suppliers.
I'm pleased to say I have now switched to a cheaper supplier.
But in the process I realized the house was being charged for electric
at Economy 7 rate, despite there being no storage devices here that
draw power overnight. I have now requested the electric be changed to
a flat rate charge. God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.
Perhaps I'm just inherently dumb, but I'd certainly recommend folk to
check their electric charging structure and get it changed if they
happen to be on economy 7 but not using a significant amount
overnight.

It's a good thing that you finally decided to look at what tariff
you're on and compare prices, but did you say there was some kind of
scam going on? What exactly is the scam? It's not obvious from what
you have written here.

Chris

g***@googlemail.com

2008-12-21 00:57:12 UTC

Permalink

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

The co. concerned is selling the same product at different prices to
different customers. We're not all math graduates, but in the days of
computers it must be pretty easy for them to see which plan delivers
the best deal, but they happily go on taking extra from those on the
wrong plan. Whether it's a scam is arguable, but it ain't very nice.
As I've learned in recent years, let the buyer be (very) aware!

Yellow

2008-12-21 01:47:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@googlemail.com

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Oh come on! Maths graduate? Don't be so melodramatic.

You do not need a degree in anything to do a little simple primary
school level mathematics to see if an Economy 7 tariff is suitable. I
had Economy 7 at my old place and used to routinely do a yearly check to
ensure it was still the best option for me and I left education at 16!

All you need to know is the rate(s) charged for non-Economy 7 then just
multiply that with the numbers of units used, as plainly shown on your
bill.

But then I also bother to balance my chequebook at then end of each
month but I know people who claim that is impossible without a maths
degree too. :-)

Chris Blunt

2008-12-21 11:20:48 UTC

Permalink

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:57:12 -0800 (PST),

Post by g***@googlemail.com

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

What they're actually doing is selling their product at different
prices at different times of the day, depending on the level of
demand. Rather than being a scam, that seems to make good sense to me.
Prices of most things normally fall when demand is less - that's just
simple economics. It's no different from telephone calls costing less
at off-peak times, or hotels offering cheaper rates during the
low-season.

Chris

Ronald Raygun

2008-12-21 11:45:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Chris Blunt
What they're actually doing is selling their product at different
prices at different times of the day, depending on the level of
demand. Rather than being a scam, that seems to make good sense to me.
Prices of most things normally fall when demand is less - that's just
simple economics. It's no different from telephone calls costing less
at off-peak times, or hotels offering cheaper rates during the
low-season.

Oh but it *is* different. Being on a standard electricity tariff is
like always going to a hotel which charges the same rates all year,
while being on the "economy" tariff is like going to a hotel which
applies low-season discounts and high-season surcharges.

With hotels, however, you are free to go to any hotel you like at any
time, whereas subscribing to a particular electricity tariff would be
more like saying that during any one agreement period (generally for
a minimum of one year) you can only holiday in one hotel, and you have
to put up with the high-season surcharges as quid pro quo for enjoying
the privilege of the low-season discount.

It would be much more reasonable if you could use economy tariff at
night and standard tariff during the day, but there seems to be an
unwritten rule that you're only allowed one tariff per dwelling.

But we can get the bastards:

In principle households could team up in pairs with their neighbours.
One household would be on economy, the other on standard. But they
both sell on to each other part of the electricity they buy from their
suppliers. That way both of them use cheap-rate power at night and
mid-rate power during the day, and neither ever uses any high-rate
power at all.

David Woolley

2008-12-21 12:10:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by Ronald Raygun
It would be much more reasonable if you could use economy tariff at
night and standard tariff during the day, but there seems to be an
unwritten rule that you're only allowed one tariff per dwelling.

In that case, there would be no point in being on any other tariff and,
as people moved over to that structure, the standard rate would increase
to match the E7 day time rate, so as to maintain the same total revenue.

In general, it is very uncommon to find pricing structures that truly
reflect costs, e.g. GSM SMS messages have a vary low marginal cost, but
are charged the same as a 20 or more second call, and just look at the
number of inclusive minutes phone tariffs. However, if one wanted to
reflect the true costs of electricity supply, the price would have a
fixed component, a peak usage component and a usage component. The fuel
component may well have a peak usage excess, because of higher fuel
costs for certain generation methods.

I believe commercial tariffs are often peak usage based and that
reflects the cost of the generating and distribution infrastructure that
has to be there, even though not fully utilised most of the time.

How many domestic users would be happy with such a tariff structure?

brightside S9

2008-12-13 09:36:49 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Does the electric meter have two usage counters? Usually marked high
/ low or night / day?

--
brightside s9

tim.....

2008-12-13 12:21:56 UTC

Permalink

This is hardly a scam.

The previous owner will have decided for themselves that this was an
appropriate tariff (perhaps because they always ran their washing machine
overnight) and there is no reason why the leccy board will think to suggest
otherwise.

tim

Yellow

2008-12-13 17:50:57 UTC

Permalink

So in 2 years you have not bothered to read an electricity bill and now
you think you've been "scammed"?

Words fail.

robgraham

2008-12-13 18:07:12 UTC

Permalink

Post by Yellow

So in 2 years you have not bothered to read an electricity bill and now
you think you've been "scammed"?
Words fail.

This is an example of 'it's someone else's fault, not mine' that seems to
prevail these days.

Rob Graham

Mad Cliffy's Legs Don't Work

2008-12-13 19:00:14 UTC

Permalink

Post by robgraham

Post by Yellow

So in 2 years you have not bothered to read an electricity bill and now
you think you've been "scammed"?
Words fail.

This is an example of 'it's someone else's fault, not mine' that seems to
prevail these days.
Rob Graham- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

"I want some compensation" are the next four words marching
relentlessly towards this thread..........

Derek Geldard

2008-12-15 00:35:22 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by G***@googlemail.com
God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.

To be honest there's scarcely anything in it if you have a fridge and
a freezer running overnight plus various appliances on standby.

Post by G***@googlemail.com
Perhaps I'm just inherently dumb, but I'd certainly recommend folk to
check their electric charging structure and get it changed if they
happen to be on economy 7 but not using a significant amount
overnight.

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.

It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your
electricity bill in front of you.

Derek

Mark

2008-12-15 16:32:53 UTC

Permalink

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:35:22 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by G***@googlemail.com
God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.

To be honest there's scarcely anything in it if you have a fridge and
a freezer running overnight plus various appliances on standby.

I doubt it. If you are on an E7 like tariff then you will pay
considerably more for daytime units than the single tariff. Given
that cheap rate is only 7 hours per day then you would have to be
using a *lot* more electricity at night to make it worthwhile.

Post by Chris Blunt

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.
It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your
electricity bill in front of you.

If you know how much electricity you use at night.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

Derek Geldard

2008-12-17 10:55:23 UTC

Permalink

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:32:53 +0000, Mark

Post by Mark
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:35:22 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by G***@googlemail.com
God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.

To be honest there's scarcely anything in it if you have a fridge and
a freezer running overnight plus various appliances on standby.

EDF "Eastern region"

Standard "band B" rate 9.94p / kWh

E7 "band B" rate 11.05p / kWh

E7 night rate 5.34p / kWh

So roughly speaking you pay 10% more during the day to get 50% off at
night. So if your night use is 1/5 th of your day use you break even.

Remember if you put the washing machine / dryer / dishwasher on first
thing in the morning or last thing at night you can save a load or 2
at the daytime rate and get it through at the cheap rate.

Ditto the immersion heater first thing.

Perhaps not exactly a bonanza but not an outrageous scam.

Post by Mark

Post by Chris Blunt

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.
It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your
electricity bill in front of you.

If you know how much electricity you use at night.

Which is printed on the bill "in front of you".

Derek

Mark

2008-12-23 11:15:00 UTC

Permalink

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:55:23 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Derek Geldard
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:32:53 +0000, Mark

Post by Mark
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:35:22 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Chris Blunt
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0800 (PST),

Post by G***@googlemail.com
God only knows how much I have overpaid over the
past 2 years, and my previous supplier never thought to suggest E7
might be inappropriate.

To be honest there's scarcely anything in it if you have a fridge and
a freezer running overnight plus various appliances on standby.

That looks a lot more favourable than the rates I have seen.

Post by Derek Geldard
Remember if you put the washing machine / dryer / dishwasher on first
thing in the morning or last thing at night you can save a load or 2
at the daytime rate and get it through at the cheap rate.
Ditto the immersion heater first thing.
Perhaps not exactly a bonanza but not an outrageous scam.

It was someone else who claimed this was a scam, not me.

Post by Derek Geldard

Post by Mark

Post by Chris Blunt

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.
It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your
electricity bill in front of you.

If you know how much electricity you use at night.

Which is printed on the bill "in front of you".

No it isn't. If you don't already have E7 then this information is
not available to you.

Ronald Raygun

2008-12-23 14:21:20 UTC

Permalink

Post by Mark
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:55:23 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Derek Geldard
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:32:53 +0000, Mark

Post by Mark
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:35:22 +0000, Derek Geldard

Post by Derek Geldard

I suppose providers will vary but it wasn't worth us changing back.
It's a very straightforward calculation to make if you have your
electricity bill in front of you.

If you know how much electricity you use at night.

Which is printed on the bill "in front of you".

No it isn't.

Yes it is.

Post by Mark
If you don't already have E7 then this information is
not available to you.

The comment was made in the context of being faced with the decision
whether to stay on E7 or to change back to standard, so it was *given*
that one already has E7.

Of course, when someone else (who isn't on it) is considering whether
it's worth moving the other way, from standard to economy, then obviously
they won't have the necessary information already printed on their bill,
but it's not exactly difficult to obtain. The rates will be published
somewhere, so all one has to do to get an idea of one's present usage is
to read one's meter twice a day at the key times for a few weeks. Just
the sort of task to delegate to one's teenage kid who's keen on being
given some responsibility. :-)