The great CFL rip-off.

[ian field]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

[Brian Gaff]

Many of us visually impaired had problems with the new lights from the
start. I suspect it has something to do with both the flicker and the
spectrum which causes the perceived increase in visual noise and also
causes nausea in some people.

Once again, nobody considered these sort of implications, at the design
stage.

I'm all for saving energy and money, and have these bulbs here, but not all
of these are seemingly as good as each other. One needs to buy some of
various types, and test them, and only keep the ones which do not cause the
above problems. Nobody seemed to believe us when we complained.

Brian

[ian field]

Post by Brian Gaff
Many of us visually impaired had problems with the new lights from the
start. I suspect it has something to do with both the flicker and the
spectrum which causes the perceived increase in visual noise and also
causes nausea in some people.
Once again, nobody considered these sort of implications, at the design
stage.
I'm all for saving energy and money, and have these bulbs here, but not
all of these are seemingly as good as each other. One needs to buy some of
various types, and test them, and only keep the ones which do not cause
the above problems. Nobody seemed to believe us when we complained.

In the early days CFLs were much less reliable and much more expensive, at
that time I found it worthwhile to repair them. By far the most common
failure mode was the electrolytic capacitor in the rectifier/reservoir
section. The biggest capacitor I've seen in a CFL was a piffling 22uF, the
lower wattage one's use a tiny 4.7uF!

At the time I was making my living repairing PC monitors and had a ready to
hand source of scrap boards with rectifier/reservoir capacitors up to and
over 470uF - since I did not have ready to hand 22uF/400V electrolytics that
would fit in a CFL, I made use of the one's from scrap monitors and
superglued them to the outside of the casing and wired them in through a
hole drilled in the side of the CFL.

If the woefully inadequate smoothing is the cause of problems this might be
a solution. RTV silicone sealant is good for insulating the exposed
capacitor terminals, note that the inrush current to charge the bigger
capacitor will blow the fusible resistor/thermal fuse, so a NTC inrush
limiting thermistor is needed in series with the fusible resistor. Also
you'd need to identify a make of CFL that the casing can be pried apart
without damage and clipped back together again after the modifications, the
Philips one's I bought in quantity are practically impossible to unclip
without destroying the casing - Morrisons own brand CFLs are much easier.

An obvious alternative to vandalising the CFLs, is to make a ceiling rose
assembly containing adequate smoothing with it's own rectifier, surge
limiting NTC and fault protection - the CFL won't mind pre-smoothed DC.

[Brian Gaff]

Which also reminds me that a lot of these also kick out a lot of rf
interference. Sadly the best ones are worst for this. The ones I got free
from EDF seem actually quite good, but rubbish in the rfi stakes. Do they
use some kind of oscillator to make them come in at full light output or
what?
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - ***@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

Post by ian field

Post by Brian Gaff
Many of us visually impaired had problems with the new lights from the
start. I suspect it has something to do with both the flicker and the
spectrum which causes the perceived increase in visual noise and also
causes nausea in some people.
Once again, nobody considered these sort of implications, at the design
stage.
I'm all for saving energy and money, and have these bulbs here, but not
all of these are seemingly as good as each other. One needs to buy some
of various types, and test them, and only keep the ones which do not
cause the above problems. Nobody seemed to believe us when we complained.

In the early days CFLs were much less reliable and much more expensive, at
that time I found it worthwhile to repair them. By far the most common
failure mode was the electrolytic capacitor in the rectifier/reservoir
section. The biggest capacitor I've seen in a CFL was a piffling 22uF, the
lower wattage one's use a tiny 4.7uF!
At the time I was making my living repairing PC monitors and had a ready
to hand source of scrap boards with rectifier/reservoir capacitors up to
and over 470uF - since I did not have ready to hand 22uF/400V
electrolytics that would fit in a CFL, I made use of the one's from scrap
monitors and superglued them to the outside of the casing and wired them
in through a hole drilled in the side of the CFL.
If the woefully inadequate smoothing is the cause of problems this might
be a solution. RTV silicone sealant is good for insulating the exposed
capacitor terminals, note that the inrush current to charge the bigger
capacitor will blow the fusible resistor/thermal fuse, so a NTC inrush
limiting thermistor is needed in series with the fusible resistor. Also
you'd need to identify a make of CFL that the casing can be pried apart
without damage and clipped back together again after the modifications,
the Philips one's I bought in quantity are practically impossible to
unclip without destroying the casing - Morrisons own brand CFLs are much
easier.
An obvious alternative to vandalising the CFLs, is to make a ceiling rose
assembly containing adequate smoothing with it's own rectifier, surge
limiting NTC and fault protection - the CFL won't mind pre-smoothed DC.

[Roger]

Post by Brian Gaff
Which also reminds me that a lot of these also kick out a lot of rf
interference. Sadly the best ones are worst for this. The ones I got free
from EDF seem actually quite good, but rubbish in the rfi stakes. Do they
use some kind of oscillator to make them come in at full light output or
what?
Brian
--

It's the mini-switching mode power supply in the base that causes RFI
all over HF. Very annoying too. The Philips range has a major design
fault in them, so if you have any you need to contact them via the website
and give the place your got them from and the barcode on the box. They
will exchange the bulbs by sending you new ones. The fault was noticable
with the bulb plugged in but the lightswitch off. The bulb flickered every
few seconds. It's caused by a faulty circuit that picks up any inbalance,
spikes or low voltages between neutral and earth. Also any interference
from cell sites, tetra sites or other radio amateurs!
Philips were aware of this 2 years ago and refused to restock the shops
affected such as Morrisons. So if you fancy some new bulbs get in touch
with Philips and ask about their LED bulbs!

[ian field]

Post by Roger

Post by Brian Gaff
Which also reminds me that a lot of these also kick out a lot of rf
interference. Sadly the best ones are worst for this. The ones I got free
from EDF seem actually quite good, but rubbish in the rfi stakes. Do they
use some kind of oscillator to make them come in at full light output or
what?
Brian
--

It's the mini-switching mode power supply in the base that causes RFI
all over HF. Very annoying too. The Philips range has a major design
fault in them, so if you have any you need to contact them via the website
and give the place your got them from and the barcode on the box. They
will exchange the bulbs by sending you new ones. The fault was noticable
with the bulb plugged in but the lightswitch off. The bulb flickered every
few seconds. It's caused by a faulty circuit that picks up any inbalance,
spikes or low voltages between neutral and earth. Also any interference
from cell sites, tetra sites or other radio amateurs!
Philips were aware of this 2 years ago and refused to restock the shops
affected such as Morrisons. So if you fancy some new bulbs get in touch
with Philips and ask about their LED bulbs!

So that's why Morrison's knocked them down to 0.99p and then added a BOGOF
offer.

[ian field]

Post by Brian Gaff
Which also reminds me that a lot of these also kick out a lot of rf
interference. Sadly the best ones are worst for this. The ones I got free
from EDF seem actually quite good, but rubbish in the rfi stakes. Do they
use some kind of oscillator to make them come in at full light output or
what?
Brian

http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/applicationnotes/AN00048_1.pdf

http://www.en-genius.net/includes/files/col_081307.pdf

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html

http://www.irf.com/technical-info/refdesigns/cfl-2.pdf

[Roger]

Post by Brian Gaff
Many of us visually impaired had problems with the new lights from the
start. I suspect it has something to do with both the flicker and the
spectrum which causes the perceived increase in visual noise and also
causes nausea in some people.
Once again, nobody considered these sort of implications, at the design
stage.
I'm all for saving energy and money, and have these bulbs here, but not
all of these are seemingly as good as each other. One needs to buy some of
various types, and test them, and only keep the ones which do not cause
the above problems. Nobody seemed to believe us when we complained.
Brian
--

Philips produced a light bulb a few years ago and REFUSE to sell it to the
public. It looks like a noraml 100w bulb but it is the coating inside that
is
the secret. It glows a brilliant white when ultraviolet light is used
inside.
I have seen a few of them and they use 3 1watt ultraviolet LEDs and some
additional circuitry to reduce the voltage. Once the LEDs are lit they
cause
the outside of the bulb (inside the glass) to glow the same as a normal
bulb.

So they would put compact fluorescents - which are rubbish - out of the
market overnight. Why use 18watts when you can use 3watts! This means
that electricity prices will increase as they did when people ditched the
standard bulbs to save money. Company profits dropped so the price of
each unit was increased to keep shareholders happy!
You can't win sometimes.

So keep watching out for the Philips LED bulb, 240v @ 3watts with the
equivalent light output to a 100w standard bulb or 20watt CFL.
Don't be fobbed off by Philips, they have presented the bulbs at trade
shows.

[Frederick Williams]

... This means
that electricity prices will increase as they did when people ditched the
standard bulbs to save money. Company profits dropped so the price of
each unit was increased to keep shareholders happy!

Is it your claim that when CFLs were introduced the public's overall
consumption of electricity went down?

[Frederick Williams]

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

From which:

Eurocrats are accusing firms of falsely claiming energy-saving
lightbulbs are as bright as traditional ones.

Which is utterly stupid: how bright a bulb is depends on the amount of
electrical power it consumes. If someone replaces a filament lamp with
a CFL that is less bright they should use a CFL with a higher power
rating.

There is no "rip-off" (a vulgar piece of journalese) but there is some
stupidity.

[ian field]

Post by Frederick Williams

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

Eurocrats are accusing firms of falsely claiming energy-saving
lightbulbs are as bright as traditional ones.
Which is utterly stupid: how bright a bulb is depends on the amount of
electrical power it consumes. If someone replaces a filament lamp with
a CFL that is less bright they should use a CFL with a higher power
rating.

If you examine the small print on the box you are likely to find words to
the effect: 18W equivalent to a 100W soft tone lamp - which is not as bright
as a standard 100W incandescent lamp.

[Frederick Williams]

Post by ian field

Post by Frederick Williams

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

Eurocrats are accusing firms of falsely claiming energy-saving
lightbulbs are as bright as traditional ones.
Which is utterly stupid: how bright a bulb is depends on the amount of
electrical power it consumes. If someone replaces a filament lamp with
a CFL that is less bright they should use a CFL with a higher power
rating.

If you examine the small print on the box you are likely to find words to
the effect: 18W equivalent to a 100W soft tone lamp - which is not as bright
as a standard 100W incandescent lamp.

Well that's all right then isn't it? I must confess I don't know what a
soft tone lamp is, but if what was written on the box was

18W as bright as a standard 100W incandescent lamp

then I'd feel that I was being deceived if it wasn't as bright according
to some objective measure of brightness. But "equivalent"? That's just
a weasel word isn't it? Equivalent according to what measure?

Perhaps the manufacturers should be challenged to say what they mean?
I'm going to e-mail Philips, some of whose bulbs I have. I'll report
back.

[Frederick Williams]

Post by Frederick Williams
...
Perhaps the manufacturers should be challenged to say what they mean?
I'm going to e-mail Philips, some of whose bulbs I have. I'll report
back.

... so I took the box of such a bulb hoping to find an e-mail address.
No such luck, but if anyone knows it I'll be grateful to be told. But
what is interesting is that on the box is printed

8 WATT ENERGY > LIGHT* 40 WATT

(The '>' is my rendering of a sort of arrowhead thing.) The asterisk
suggests a footnote that might expand on that (well-nigh meaningless)
legend, but there is no footnote. What I do find elsewhere on the box
is

420 lumen.

So: take the box of your favourite light bulb (100 W incandescent, or
whatever) and see it gives the brightness (luminous flux, more
precisely) in lumen. If it does then be sure to buy CFLs with no less a
lumen figure on their boxes. Wattage will give radiant flux which isn't
what-your-eye-perceives.

[Frederick Williams]

Post by Frederick Williams
..
whatever) and see it gives the brightness (luminous flux, more

and see _if_ it etc. Sorry.

[Peter Hill]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:30:50 +0100, "ian field"

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

CFL bulbs contain mercury and have to be recycled properly. How many
are? What amounts to none from domestic use. There is no way to detect
a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin. The cost in petrol to take one of
these bulbs to a council tip that has safe storage and recycling
cancels out about 700 hours of the savings (based on 2L of fuel).

My tip makes people sign for disposal of tubes. There is no way to
detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.

They don't last the hours they claim, I've already got 3 dead ones.
There is no way to detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.

The true legacy and cost of domestic use of these bulbs has yet to
come back to us as the mercury leaches out of landfill, or directly to
atmosphere as incinerators become more widespread due to EU landfill
tax and regs. 25 million UK households, 10 bulbs per houshold (I've
got 21 due to using wall lights) is 250 million bulbs, at least 1mg
per bulb (can be 3mg), that's 250Kg of mercury on it's way to landfil
or air. There is no way to detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.

[Mark]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:43:24 +0100, Peter Hill

Post by Peter Hill
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:30:50 +0100, "ian field"

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

CFL bulbs contain mercury and have to be recycled properly. How many
are? What amounts to none from domestic use. There is no way to detect
a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin. The cost in petrol to take one of
these bulbs to a council tip that has safe storage and recycling
cancels out about 700 hours of the savings (based on 2L of fuel).
My tip makes people sign for disposal of tubes. There is no way to
detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.
They don't last the hours they claim, I've already got 3 dead ones.
There is no way to detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.
The true legacy and cost of domestic use of these bulbs has yet to
come back to us as the mercury leaches out of landfill, or directly to
atmosphere as incinerators become more widespread due to EU landfill
tax and regs. 25 million UK households, 10 bulbs per houshold (I've
got 21 due to using wall lights) is 250 million bulbs, at least 1mg
per bulb (can be 3mg), that's 250Kg of mercury on it's way to landfil
or air. There is no way to detect a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin.

Don't forget that some power stations pump out large amounts of
mercury and CFLs do not contain much mercury.

Some people argue that less mercury is released into the environment
even if all CFLs end up in landfill (than if we used incandescents).

But I agree that the benefits CFLs are greatly exaggerated.

[ian field]

Post by Peter Hill
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:30:50 +0100, "ian field"

Post by ian field
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

CFL bulbs contain mercury and have to be recycled properly. How many
are? What amounts to none from domestic use. There is no way to detect
a CLF in a bag in a wheelie bin. The cost in petrol to take one of
these bulbs to a council tip that has safe storage and recycling
cancels out about 700 hours of the savings (based on 2L of fuel).

That's a rubbish excuse, there are numerous items that need to be taken to
the tip including: batteries, tyres, waste oil and any recyclable bulky
items that won't fit the wheely bin, any sensible person would put such
items aside until there's enough to make it worth the trip.

Education is the answer - make the public aware of the health damage that
can happen if mercury seeps into the water table from landfill sites.