charging 20% VAT for domestic-use firewood - advice?

[Harry Davis]

I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.

The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)

Both companies insist on charging 20%.

I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.

If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.

Advice?

If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?

(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)

Harry

[Fredxx]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.

I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

[polygonum]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Agreed. Charging 20% would be ripe for exploitation by then telling HMRC
they only charged 5%.

Also, I think that they must post their prices inclusive.

If they insist on charging 20% then they are, IMHO, saying that 15/120
of the price is VAT but without the legal basis for doing so.

[Huge]

Post by polygonum

Post by Fredxx

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Agreed. Charging 20% would be ripe for exploitation by then telling HMRC
they only charged 5%.
Also, I think that they must post their prices inclusive.
If they insist on charging 20% then they are, IMHO, saying that 15/120
of the price is VAT but without the legal basis for doing so.

VAT? On logs? Don't you pay for them with grubby fivers?

[Ian Field]

Post by Huge

Post by polygonum

Post by Fredxx

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Agreed. Charging 20% would be ripe for exploitation by then telling HMRC
they only charged 5%.
Also, I think that they must post their prices inclusive.
If they insist on charging 20% then they are, IMHO, saying that 15/120
of the price is VAT but without the legal basis for doing so.

VAT? On logs? Don't you pay for them with grubby fivers?

.........................or a bow-saw & keep warm twice.

[McKevvy]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful.  If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might (or
might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

Mck.

[Fredxx]

Post by McKevvy

Post by Fredxx

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt
that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are
wrong then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might
(or might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

They might, but the ultimate responsibility of ensuring the correct rate
of VAT is applied is with HMRC.

[Ian Field]

Post by Fredxx

Post by McKevvy

Post by Fredxx

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt
that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are
wrong then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might
(or might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

They might, but the ultimate responsibility of ensuring the correct rate
of VAT is applied is with HMRC.

& the HMRC would be very interested in whether the trader was charging 20% &
keeping 15%.

[RayL12]

Post by Ian Field

Post by Fredxx

Post by McKevvy

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt
that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are
wrong then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might
(or might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

They might, but the ultimate responsibility of ensuring the correct rate
of VAT is applied is with HMRC.

& the HMRC would be very interested in whether the trader was charging
20% & keeping 15%.

Look for local volunteering site that do country conservation(BTCV being
such. On many occasions when dropping the odd tree in various places,
they often want it cleared. The tree is usually cut to ~20 inch trunk
lengths.

...Ray.

[Harry Davis]

Post by McKevvy

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful.  If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might (or
might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

I emailed local trading standards, but got an email back telling me they
don't handle "consumer complaints" and to contact 'Consumer Advice'
(nationally) with any such complaint, but that they'd get back to me within
so many days if I was a business customer (!)

Also emailed HMRC, and got an acknowledgement. Charging too much VAT (so
long as it gets paid to the HMRC) doesn't seem to be within their stated
definition of tax fraud, but I am hoping they will be interested, because
as someone said, it's as if a company were charging 30% for VAT, or 20% on
food. Incidentally, the company operates in the name of the guy who runs
it, who claims a string of qualifications and professional memberships in
the arborical world, so one would have thought he should know about VAT.

Harry

[Alex Heney]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis

Post by McKevvy

Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful.  If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might (or
might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

I emailed local trading standards, but got an email back telling me they
don't handle "consumer complaints" and to contact 'Consumer Advice'
(nationally) with any such complaint, but that they'd get back to me within
so many days if I was a business customer (!)
Also emailed HMRC, and got an acknowledgement. Charging too much VAT (so
long as it gets paid to the HMRC) doesn't seem to be within their stated
definition of tax fraud, but I am hoping they will be interested, because
as someone said, it's as if a company were charging 30% for VAT, or 20% on
food. Incidentally, the company operates in the name of the guy who runs
it, who claims a string of qualifications and professional memberships in
the arborical world, so one would have thought he should know about VAT.

And he almost certainly does.

And is almost certainly acting correctly.

Unless he is holding it out for sale *specifically* as firewood *and*
is selling it ready prepared for use as firewood, then he is correct
to charge the full rate of VAT, regardless of what you will actually
use it for.

[Harry Davis]

Post by Alex Heney
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis
Also emailed HMRC, and got an acknowledgement. Charging too much VAT
(so long as it gets paid to the HMRC) doesn't seem to be within their
stated definition of tax fraud, but I am hoping they will be
interested, because as someone said, it's as if a company were
charging 30% for VAT, or 20% on food. Incidentally, the company
operates in the name of the guy who runs it, who claims a string of
qualifications and professional memberships in the arborical world, so
one would have thought he should know about VAT.

And he almost certainly does.
And is almost certainly acting correctly.
Unless he is holding it out for sale *specifically* as firewood *and*
is selling it ready prepared for use as firewood, then he is correct
to charge the full rate of VAT, regardless of what you will actually
use it for.

On the company's website, they say they are selling split logs ready for
burning on woodburning stoves. But surely if I buy an unsplit log and
split it myself for burning as domestic fuel, all the taxable value has
been added to it before I get hold of it, and I should pay 5% VAT only.

N

[Alex Heney]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 23:08:21 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis

Post by Alex Heney
On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis
Also emailed HMRC, and got an acknowledgement. Charging too much VAT
(so long as it gets paid to the HMRC) doesn't seem to be within their
stated definition of tax fraud, but I am hoping they will be
interested, because as someone said, it's as if a company were
charging 30% for VAT, or 20% on food. Incidentally, the company
operates in the name of the guy who runs it, who claims a string of
qualifications and professional memberships in the arborical world, so
one would have thought he should know about VAT.

And he almost certainly does.
And is almost certainly acting correctly.
Unless he is holding it out for sale *specifically* as firewood *and*
is selling it ready prepared for use as firewood, then he is correct
to charge the full rate of VAT, regardless of what you will actually
use it for.

On the company's website, they say they are selling split logs ready for
burning on woodburning stoves. But surely if I buy an unsplit log and
split it myself for burning as domestic fuel, all the taxable value has
been added to it before I get hold of it, and I should pay 5% VAT only.

You may think it *should* be that way.

But that isn't what HMRC say.

It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood, and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

[Jeff]

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

Jeff

[Steve Firth]

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The only rule on the form of the wood is that it mustn't be prepared for
use as constructional timber. However if it is constructional timber then
cutting it into short lengths and offering it for sale as firewood means it
can be sold at reduced rate VAT. That seems to be the section that is
confusing Mr Heney.

[Alex Heney]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:49:24 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The only rule on the form of the wood is that it mustn't be prepared for
use as constructional timber. However if it is constructional timber then
cutting it into short lengths and offering it for sale as firewood means it
can be sold at reduced rate VAT. That seems to be the section that is
confusing Mr Heney.

Nope.

That section is irrelevant to this discussion.

[unknown]

Post by Steve Firth
The only rule on the form of the wood is that it mustn't be prepared for
use as constructional timber. However if it is constructional timber then
cutting it into short lengths and offering it for sale as firewood means it
can be sold at reduced rate VAT. That seems to be the section that is
confusing Mr Heney.

Nope.

Oh well you're just confused and giving misleading advice then. I'm glad
we cleared that up.

[Huge]

Post by Alex Heney
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:49:24 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The only rule on the form of the wood is that it mustn't be prepared for
use as constructional timber. However if it is constructional timber then
cutting it into short lengths and offering it for sale as firewood means it
can be sold at reduced rate VAT. That seems to be the section that is
confusing Mr Heney.

Nope.
That section is irrelevant to this discussion.

FFS, give it a rest.

[Alex Heney]

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The rules also say "and that this is consistent with the packaging and
wrapping in which you supply it."

I regard that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for use
as firewood.

And I would also expect the sellers to err on the side of caution
there too. They will not likely be done by HMRC for charging 20% VAT
on wood they are selling. It is much more likely they would be done
for selling it with 5% VAT if it didn't meet the expectations of the
inspector.

[Jeff]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The rules also say "and that this is consistent with the packaging and
wrapping in which you supply it."
I regard that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for use
as firewood.

..and loose pieces of wood with no packaging would also meet the criteria.

Jeff

[Alex Heney]

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Jeff

Post by Alex Heney
It must be held out for sale *purely* as firewood,

Correct

Post by Alex Heney
and it must be
prepared in such a way as to match the description of it as firewood,
otherwise standard rate VAT must be charged.

The rules do not state that, merely that it must be held out as
firewood, and the purchaser must not re-sell it. There is no rule that
the wood must be pre-cut or split, or that the purchaser may have to do
that himself, as long as the intention of the seller is that the wood is
purely for firewood.

The rules also say "and that this is consistent with the packaging and
wrapping in which you supply it."
I regard that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for use
as firewood.

..and loose pieces of wood with no packaging would also meet the criteria.

Indeed they would.

Provided they are suitable for use as firewood in a domestic setting.

The last firewood I bought was in fact loose with no packaging, and
just dumped in a big pile from the trailer.

I didn't actually even look to see what the VAT rate charged was, but
it was sold (by my local council) as "firewood" and was cut and split
to an appropriate size - a few need additional splitting to fit the
(rather small) door of our stove, but they all fit the open fire, so I
would expect the rate to have been 5%.

[Jeff]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Jeff
..and loose pieces of wood with no packaging would also meet the criteria.

Indeed they would.
Provided they are suitable for use as firewood in a domestic setting.

The rules do not say that the the wood must be suitable for use without
any further action by the purchaser, such as sawing or splitting. It
merely states that the wood must be held out only as firewood and
packaging, if any, must reflect that fact (and the seller must not
believe that the wood is for resale).

Jeff

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Harry Davis

Post by McKevvy

Post by Fredxx
Phone HMRC, they can be very helpful. If the local company are wrong
then I'm sure HMRC will mend their ways.
I guess it depends on how these "logs" are described.

Would his local Trading Standards office help? Perhaps they might (or
might not) be a bit quicker in action that the HMRC.

I emailed local trading standards, but got an email back telling me they
don't handle "consumer complaints" and to contact 'Consumer Advice'
(nationally) with any such complaint, but that they'd get back to me within
so many days if I was a business customer (!)
Also emailed HMRC, and got an acknowledgement. Charging too much VAT (so
long as it gets paid to the HMRC) doesn't seem to be within their stated
definition of tax fraud, but I am hoping they will be interested, because
as someone said, it's as if a company were charging 30% for VAT, or 20% on
food. Incidentally, the company operates in the name of the guy who runs
it, who claims a string of qualifications and professional memberships in
the arborical world, so one would have thought he should know about VAT.

Emails in such a situation are a waste of time. If you want action to be
taken you need to write a letter and send it by recorded delivery with a
copy to your MP.

[McKevvy]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

McK,

[Mel Rowing]

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not would
amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from cleared(harvested)
areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.

There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of a particular property etc.

[McKevvy]

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature  trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not would
amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from cleared(harvested)
areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of  a particular property etc.

Right but I don't mean going and cutting down a farmers trees right
outside his house, ya know? There can often be cases where a landowner
wants trees felled for any reason or removed. My brother is a self
employed woodworker and pays his workshop rent by going around
removing trees for his landlord.


McK,

[McKevvy]

Post by McKevvy

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature  trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not would
amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from cleared(harvested)
areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of  a particular property etc.

Right but I don't mean going and cutting down a farmers trees right
outside his house, ya know? There can often be cases where a landowner
wants trees felled for any reason or removed. My brother is a self
employed woodworker and pays his workshop rent by going around
removing trees for his landlord.

I should add - in the OPs case - that maybe this may be a method that
he may supplement his supply of firewood, not replace. I don't know
how old he is or whether he is upto it physically but it's always
worth making friendships in the directions of landowners or those that
have the sayso.

McK.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by McKevvy

Post by McKevvy

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one)
and keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees
blown down and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not
would amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from
cleared(harvested) areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of a particular property etc.

Right but I don't mean going and cutting down a farmers trees right
outside his house, ya know? There can often be cases where a
landowner wants trees felled for any reason or removed. My brother
is a self employed woodworker and pays his workshop rent by going
around removing trees for his landlord.

I should add - in the OPs case - that maybe this may be a method that
he may supplement his supply of firewood, not replace. I don't know
how old he is or whether he is upto it physically but it's always
worth making friendships in the directions of landowners or those that
have the sayso.
McK.

I find that quite enough firewood arrives naturally during the year to keep
the home fires burning, you just have to keep yours eyes open and have saws
and a means of collecting it. Freecycle is often a good source of trees and
roof timbers, many items come on pallets, etc.

[McKevvy]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by McKevvy

Post by McKevvy

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one)
and keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees
blown down and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not
would amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from
cleared(harvested) areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of a particular property etc.

Right but I don't mean going and cutting down a farmers trees right
outside his house, ya know? There can often be cases where a
landowner wants trees felled for any reason or removed. My brother
is a self employed woodworker and pays his workshop rent by going
around removing trees for his landlord.

I should add - in the OPs case - that maybe this may be a method that
he may supplement his supply of firewood, not replace. I don't know
how old he is or whether he is upto it physically but it's always
worth making friendships in the directions of landowners or those that
have the sayso.
McK.

I find that quite enough firewood arrives naturally during the year to keep
the home fires burning, you just have to keep yours eyes open and have saws
and a means of collecting it.  Freecycle is often a good source of trees and
roof timbers, many items come on pallets, etc.

Indeed. I go camping on a Scout site where the local builders drop off
the wood they remove onto the site because it would cost them to
landfill it. Everyone benefits.
(railway sleepers give a heck of a heat off!)

McK.

[Mel Rowing]

Post by McKevvy

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature  trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not would
amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from cleared(harvested)
areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of  a particular property etc.

Right but I don't mean going and cutting down a farmers trees right
outside his house, ya know? There can often be cases where a landowner
wants trees felled for any reason or removed. My brother is a self
employed woodworker and pays his workshop rent by going around
removing trees for his landlord.

Fair enough! that involves getting permission!

As a kid I knew a bloke who used to recover driftwood from the river
that flowed past his cottage. You could see him any summer evening or
weekend throwing a home made grappling hook over whatever came down,
trees branches or whatever. He uses to stack it in his yard to dry out
before cutting it up for his winter fuel. He did a good line in
scaffold planks too. These he would stack separately and from time to
time somebody would go along sort one or two out from his stock a few
bob would change hands and Bob's your uncle.

[harry]

Post by Mel Rowing

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

Woods and forests are owned either privately or by the state through
the Forestry Commission. Still others are owned by charities such as
the National or various woodland or nature  trusts. The extraction of
timber from any of these properties whether storm damaged or not would
amount to theft. The right to collect firewood from cleared(harvested)
areas is sold here at £20 /acre/year.
There are rare cases where an ancient common right exists to collect
firewood from the forest floor. Common rights are not enjoyed by
everyone `and apply only to designated individuals such as residents
of a certain village or occupiers of  a particular property etc.

Plenty firewood ends up on the verge where I live. It's a race to get
there first these days.

[Harry Davis]

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

I've never used a chainsaw before. What protection and attitude would you
recommend to a novice user?

Harry

[Alex Heney]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:49:05 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

I've never used a chainsaw before. What protection and attitude would you
recommend to a novice user?

Don't use "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" as a model :)

Seriously, most of it is just common sense.

Be aware it is moving very fast, and can kick back or if you aren't
careful can throw the logs.

So don't start cutting with anybody standing within about 15 feet in
front of the chainsaw, and hold it slightly to one side, so if you do
get a kick back, it will go over your shoulder rather than over your
neck. Although taking care should prevent kickbacks anyhow - they
mainly happen when the "nose" of the chain touches something - you
should be cutting fairly close to the body of the saw, not with the
nose.

Whenever you are not actually cutting, engage the brake.

And NEVER let a moving chain touch dirt - that will blunt the chain
faster than anything else you could do.

[Ian Field]

Post by Harry Davis

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

I've never used a chainsaw before. What protection and attitude would you
recommend to a novice user?

A bow-saw.

[Bill Wright]

Post by Ian Field

Post by Harry Davis

Post by McKevvy
No disrespect but cant you buy a chainsaw (£100 for a basic one) and
keep an eye out on woods and forests? There's plenty trees blown down
and large branches blown off.

I've never used a chainsaw before. What protection and attitude would you
recommend to a novice user?

A bow-saw.

A bow saw won't stop a chain saw.

But seriously, when I had a woodburner I kept a chainsaw in the van. It
worked out pretty well, but then whilst trying to lift a redundant
telegraph pole out of the ground (I'd got a bit carried away) I broke
three ribs.

Bill

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)

I bumped up against something like this, when buying an air-sourced
heat pump from B&Q. Basically, it works out to be a load of paperwork
for them to sell these with 5% VAT, and as B&Q were cheaper even at the
standard VAT rate than other companies who did the 5% VAT paperwork,
they simply wouldn't do it.

As long as they pass on the full VAT they charged to HMRC, I don't think
anyone is doing anything illegal.

[polygonum]

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)

I bumped up against something like this, when buying an air-sourced
heat pump from B&Q. Basically, it works out to be a load of paperwork
for them to sell these with 5% VAT, and as B&Q were cheaper even at the
standard VAT rate than other companies who did the 5% VAT paperwork,
they simply wouldn't do it.
As long as they pass on the full VAT they charged to HMRC, I don't think
anyone is doing anything illegal.

If I offer something to you, and charge 30% VAT, and then pass that on
the HMRC, then I think something is very wrong. So will HMRC and, if
they notice, will not usually accept the excess payment.

[Harry Davis]

...

Post by Andrew Gabriel
I bumped up against something like this, when buying an air-sourced
heat pump from B&Q. Basically, it works out to be a load of paperwork
for them to sell these with 5% VAT, and as B&Q were cheaper even at
the standard VAT rate than other companies who did the 5% VAT
paperwork, they simply wouldn't do it.
As long as they pass on the full VAT they charged to HMRC, I don't
think anyone is doing anything illegal.

I wonder what would happen if you sued B&Q. OK you agreed to pay 20%, but
only because they said they weren't prepared to sell you the item and
charge only the rate that was properly chargeable.

Harry

[Obadiah Binks]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

[polygonum]

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

I would guess not correct.

7. Solid fuels

7.1 What supplies are taxed at the reduced rate?

The reduced VAT rate applies to supplies of coal, coke and other solid
combustible materials for a qualifying use (see Section 3) provided:

you hold them out for sale solely as fuel, and
they are offered in a form and at a price that is compatible with
their being sold as fuel.

7.1.1 Supplies of small - de minimis - quantities

A supply of one tonne or less of domestic grade coal or coke that you
hold out for sale as domestic fuel is taxed at the reduced rate. The
weight limit of one tonne applies to the total delivered weight of all
types of such coal or coke you supply at any one time, not to the weight
of supplies of individual products, such as lignite, anthracite.

7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal

A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely as
fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer does not
intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount you supply.

7.1.3 Firewood

Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.

'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and that
this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you supply it.

[Alex Heney]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:08:12 +0000, polygonum <***@vrod.co.uk>
wrote:

<snip>

Post by polygonum
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely as
fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer does not
intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and that
this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you supply it.

This is the important bit.

It doesn't matter in the least what the customer says he is going to
use the wood for, it is all down to whether the *seller* states he is
only selling the wood as firewood.

If he doesn't, then it is standard rated.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw
and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use"
as including use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the
wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both
say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or
otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt
that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud?
Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and
there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

[Fredxx]

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be
correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?

Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

[Mrcheerful]

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be
correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

[Alex Heney]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be
correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.

A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699

Within that, sections 7.1.2 & 7.1.3 are the relevant ones here:

===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.

7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.

'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================

So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

[polygonum]

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

[Man at B&Q]

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated?  Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements.  HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp....
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

You also ned to read the final paragraph for the definition of 'held
out for sale'.

So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

MBQ

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Man at B&Q

Post by polygonum

Post by polygonum
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after
all, wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

You also ned to read the final paragraph for the definition of 'held
out for sale'.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

Why? "describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood"
provided that is fullfilled then the applicable rate of VAT is 5%.

I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies something
but what? Our logs come in plain dumpy bags nothing to say they are
"fuel" or "firewood", though they are sawn and split with 5% VAT. Should
I pay 20% VAT on the logs included that aren't split? Should I be paying
20% VAT because the "packaging" is plain?

[Huge]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Man at B&Q

Post by polygonum

Post by polygonum
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after
all, wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

You also ned to read the final paragraph for the definition of 'held
out for sale'.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

Why? "describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood"
provided that is fullfilled then the applicable rate of VAT is 5%.
I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies something
but what? Our logs come in plain dumpy bags nothing to say they are
"fuel" or "firewood", though they are sawn and split with 5% VAT. Should
I pay 20% VAT on the logs included that aren't split? Should I be paying
20% VAT because the "packaging" is plain?

I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Huge
I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

In this context it's "domestic fuel" so attracts VAT at 5% just like
domestic oil, gas and electricity. Fairly sure that 5% VAT on domestic
fuel is a UK thing, if the EU had their way it would be standard rate -
20%.

[Huge]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Huge
I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

In this context it's "domestic fuel" so attracts VAT at 5% just like
domestic oil, gas and electricity. Fairly sure that 5% VAT on domestic
fuel is a UK thing, if the EU had their way it would be standard rate -
20%.

My point was that firewood is generally sold by grubby little men without
enough teeth, for cash, and VAT never enters into it.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Huge

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Huge
I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

In this context it's "domestic fuel" so attracts VAT at 5% just like
domestic oil, gas and electricity. Fairly sure that 5% VAT on domestic
fuel is a UK thing, if the EU had their way it would be standard rate -
20%.

My point was that firewood is generally sold by grubby little men without
enough teeth, for cash, and VAT never enters into it.

The little man that sells us our wood is not grubby and I have never
examined his teeth. He lives across the field from us. I pay by cheque
and he gives me a receipt.

[Fredxx]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Huge
I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

In this context it's "domestic fuel" so attracts VAT at 5% just like
domestic oil, gas and electricity. Fairly sure that 5% VAT on
domestic fuel is a UK thing, if the EU had their way it would be
standard rate - 20%.

Perhaps the rest of Europe are more sensitive to the near indiscriminate
burning of fossil fuels for domestic use.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Huge
I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

In this context it's "domestic fuel" so attracts VAT at 5% just like
domestic oil, gas and electricity. Fairly sure that 5% VAT on domestic
fuel is a UK thing, if the EU had their way it would be standard rate -
20%.

A good rant spoiled only by the facts. VAT on fossil fuel in Italy is 10%.
VAT on firewood is zero.

[harry]

Post by Huge

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Man at B&Q

Post by polygonum

Post by polygonum
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after
all, wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

You also ned to read the final paragraph for the definition of 'held
out for sale'.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

Why? "describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood"
provided that is fullfilled then the applicable rate of VAT is 5%.
I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies something
but what? Our logs come in plain dumpy bags nothing to say they are
"fuel" or "firewood", though they are sawn and split with 5% VAT. Should
I pay 20% VAT on the logs included that aren't split? Should I be paying
20% VAT because the "packaging" is plain?

I continue to be astonished that anyone pays VAT on firewood at all.

I continue to be surprised that people pay for firewood.
There are tiny bags in our B&Q for a ridiculous price.

BTW, Why are Churchill insurance slime?

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by harry
There are tiny bags in our B&Q for a ridiculous price.

Any body buying firewood other than for a fire used occasionally, as an
ornament, doesn't buy it in those tiny bags. Our stove would get through
3 or 4 of those an evening...

[Alex Heney]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:18:31 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Man at B&Q

Post by polygonum

Post by polygonum
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after
all, wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

You also ned to read the final paragraph for the definition of 'held
out for sale'.
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

Why? "describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood"
provided that is fullfilled then the applicable rate of VAT is 5%.
I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies something
but what?

To me,. that implies that they must be sold in a state suitable for
use as firewood.

Post by Dave Liquorice
Our logs come in plain dumpy bags nothing to say they are
"fuel" or "firewood", though they are sawn and split with 5% VAT. Should
I pay 20% VAT on the logs included that aren't split? Should I be paying
20% VAT because the "packaging" is plain?

I don't see why the packaging being plain would make any difference.

If some of the logs are unsplit and too big for use on any normal
domestic fire without splitting, then I would think those should not
really have been sold as firewood qualifying for the reduced rate.

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Dave Liquorice
I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies
something but what?

To me,. that implies that they must be sold in a state suitable for
use as firewood.

Doesn't say anything at all about the state of the wood only something,
undefined, about the packaging and wrapping.

So a seller states this bundle of 6 12" dia 6' long logs are firewood and
writes "firewood" on the steel wrapping ties holding the bundle together.
The requirments have been fullfilled for 5% VAT, namely "held out for
sale" as firewood and packaged/wrapped as such.

Post by Alex Heney
I don't see why the packaging being plain would make any difference.

Because plain packaging doesn't state that the contents are "firewood".

Post by Alex Heney
If some of the logs are unsplit and too big for use on any normal
domestic fire without splitting, then I would think those should not
really have been sold as firewood qualifying for the reduced rate.

You haven't commented on whether you think 18" long bits of 4" x 4" are
"firewood" or not.

[Alex Heney]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:27:32 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Dave Liquorice
I guess one could argue that "packaging and wrapping" implies
something but what?

To me,. that implies that they must be sold in a state suitable for
use as firewood.

Doesn't say anything at all about the state of the wood only something,
undefined, about the packaging and wrapping.
So a seller states this bundle of 6 12" dia 6' long logs are firewood and
writes "firewood" on the steel wrapping ties holding the bundle together.
The requirments have been fullfilled for 5% VAT, namely "held out for
sale" as firewood and packaged/wrapped as such.

I would not say that packaging/wrapping is "consistent" with it
actually being firewood.

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
I don't see why the packaging being plain would make any difference.

Because plain packaging doesn't state that the contents are "firewood".

I don't believe that is what that paragraph means.

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
If some of the logs are unsplit and too big for use on any normal
domestic fire without splitting, then I would think those should not
really have been sold as firewood qualifying for the reduced rate.

You haven't commented on whether you think 18" long bits of 4" x 4" are
"firewood" or not.

Yes I did.

In a response to the post where that question was asked.

[Alex Heney]

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

No.

The final paragraph applies to both the previous ones.

It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

[polygonum]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

No.
The final paragraph applies to both the previous ones.
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

If all that is required is splitting, then I contend it is perfectly
reasonable and consistent. There really are not that many uses for short
pieces of tree trunk that have not been carefully prepared, evenly and
properly seasoned, etc.

We can disagree about this. But that just emphasises that there is no
cut and dried answer short of getting an HMRC ruling.

[Alex Heney]

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

No.
The final paragraph applies to both the previous ones.
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

If all that is required is splitting, then I contend it is perfectly
reasonable and consistent. There really are not that many uses for short
pieces of tree trunk that have not been carefully prepared, evenly and
properly seasoned, etc.
We can disagree about this. But that just emphasises that there is no
cut and dried answer short of getting an HMRC ruling.

True.

It is definitely open to interpretation.

But I would expect most VAT registered businesses to err on the side
of caution here, as I said in another post.

I certainly don't think it is clearly "wrong" to charge 20% on logs
that aren't actually in a state suitable for domestic fires without
further preparation.

[polygonum]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC must be
the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&propertyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

As I read it, they qualify under 7.1.2, don't they? They are, after all,
wood! So long as they are held out for sale solely as fuel.

No.
The final paragraph applies to both the previous ones.
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

If all that is required is splitting, then I contend it is perfectly
reasonable and consistent. There really are not that many uses for short
pieces of tree trunk that have not been carefully prepared, evenly and
properly seasoned, etc.
We can disagree about this. But that just emphasises that there is no
cut and dried answer short of getting an HMRC ruling.

True.
It is definitely open to interpretation.
But I would expect most VAT registered businesses to err on the side
of caution here, as I said in another post.
I certainly don't think it is clearly "wrong" to charge 20% on logs
that aren't actually in a state suitable for domestic fires without
further preparation.

For a new seller, or an occasional seller, I'd agree. But if you have
been selling regularly for a few years, I'd expect customers to have
have insisted on the lower rate, if it is indeed applicable.

[harry]

inal paragraph applies to both the previous ones.

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

If all that is required is splitting, then I contend it is perfectly
reasonable and consistent. There really are not that many uses for short
pieces of tree trunk that have not been carefully prepared, evenly and
properly seasoned, etc.

Some wood is only fit for firewood.

Post by Alex Heney

Post by polygonum
We can disagree about this. But that just emphasises that there is no
cut and dried answer short of getting an HMRC ruling.

True.
It is definitely open to interpretation.
But I would expect most VAT registered businesses to err on the side
of caution here, as I said in another post.
I certainly don't think it is clearly "wrong" to charge 20% on logs
that aren't actually in a state suitable for domestic fires without
further preparation.
--

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?

Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

[Fredxx]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

If you have a hearth 18" wide or deep, I don't see why not!

[Steve Firth]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

He's just plain wrong. There's no requirement for the wood to be cut and
split to a particular size.

[Alex Heney]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

He's just plain wrong.

I will accept it is open to interpretation.

I won't accept just "plain wrong" unless you can come up with some
good evidence beyond your interpretation.

Post by Steve Firth
There's no requirement for the wood to be cut and
split to a particular size.

I've never said there is.

[unknown]

Post by Alex Heney
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

He's just plain wrong.

I will accept it is open to interpretation.

And will you also accept that you are giving an incorrect and misleading
interpretation based on no knowledge of the purchase or use of firewood?

Post by Alex Heney
I won't accept just "plain wrong" unless you can come up with some
good evidence beyond your interpretation.

You wouldn't accept you were wrong if you were taken to the evidence and
had your nose rubbed in it.

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Steve Firth
There's no requirement for the wood to be cut and
split to a particular size.

I've never said there is.

"It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood"" is what you
said, which implies preparation of some sort.

Firewood is wood that has been cut and split to a size suitable for
burning in a grate or in a stove. But you are wrong, there's no
requirement for wood to be in any "state" there is a requirement for the
seller to declare that it is intended for sale as firewood. However,
again unlike your suggestions here, there's no need for the seller to
use the term "firewood" in advertising. The use of the term "log" is as
good as the term "firewood" for that purpose. Merely for the seller to
make it clear that the wood is intended for sale as firewood.

The customer must assert that the wood is intended for use as firewood
and will not be re-sold if the physical form of the wood leads to doubt
about the intention of the customer.

There's no requirement for the wood to be wrapped, packed, cut, split or
anything else. It's perfectly possible and reasonable to buy whole logs,
trunks, branches etc and then to cut and split them at home and *as long
as the customer does not intend to resell and does not intend to use the
wood for purposes other than firewood and as long as the seller declares
it is firewood* it can be sold at the lower rate.

[Alex Heney]

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

He's just plain wrong.

I will accept it is open to interpretation.

And will you also accept that you are giving an incorrect and misleading
interpretation based on no knowledge of the purchase or use of firewood?

No.

I use and purchase firewood.

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney
I won't accept just "plain wrong" unless you can come up with some
good evidence beyond your interpretation.

You wouldn't accept you were wrong if you were taken to the evidence and
had your nose rubbed in it.

Why the unnecessary (and false) personal insult?

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney

Post by Steve Firth
There's no requirement for the wood to be cut and
split to a particular size.

I've never said there is.

"It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood"" is what you
said, which implies preparation of some sort.

Agreed.

Post by unknown
Firewood is wood that has been cut and split to a size suitable for
burning in a grate or in a stove. But you are wrong, there's no
requirement for wood to be in any "state" there is a requirement for the
seller to declare that it is intended for sale as firewood. However,
again unlike your suggestions here, there's no need for the seller to
use the term "firewood" in advertising. The use of the term "log" is as
good as the term "firewood" for that purpose. Merely for the seller to
make it clear that the wood is intended for sale as firewood.

Sorry, but I disagree completely here.

The HMRC publication is quite clear that it must be held out for sale
as "firewood" or "fuel". The term "log" does not do that. It is far
too generic.

Post by unknown
The customer must assert that the wood is intended for use as firewood
and will not be re-sold if the physical form of the wood leads to doubt
about the intention of the customer.

The only way in which the intent of the customer enters into it is
that the customer must not intend to re-sell the wood.

Post by unknown
There's no requirement for the wood to be wrapped, packed, cut, split or
anything else.

So what is *your* interpretation of the paragraph which says otherwise
then?

Post by unknown
It's perfectly possible and reasonable to buy whole logs,
trunks, branches etc and then to cut and split them at home and *as long
as the customer does not intend to resell and does not intend to use the
wood for purposes other than firewood and as long as the seller declares
it is firewood* it can be sold at the lower rate.

Provided the wrapping and packaging is consistent with that.

[Alex Heney]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:17:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

I would say so, provided it was also advertised as such.

You are probably getting close to the upper limit there, but I
wouldn't like to say exactly where that might be set.

You have to use your common sense.

[Bill Taylor]

Post by Alex Heney
On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:17:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

I would say so, provided it was also advertised as such.
You are probably getting close to the upper limit there, but I
wouldn't like to say exactly where that might be set.
You have to use your common sense.

My boiler takes 500mm pieces and there are some that take up to 1M
lengths, so i'd call it firewood.

I still think it depends on the end use, so if a seller of cord is
selling to an end user to cut and split it is still firewood and
attracts 5%. But if the seller wants to err on the side of caution
it's perfectly reasonable for him to charge 20% and the customer can
chose to pay it or go elsewhere.

[Alex Heney]

Post by Bill Taylor

Post by Alex Heney
On Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:17:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by Alex Heney
It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood".

Which is?
Is a lump wood 18 x 4 x 4" "firewood"?

I would say so, provided it was also advertised as such.
You are probably getting close to the upper limit there, but I
wouldn't like to say exactly where that might be set.
You have to use your common sense.

My boiler takes 500mm pieces and there are some that take up to 1M
lengths, so i'd call it firewood.

Fair enough. The 500mm is roughly the same as the 18" referred to
above.

I'm slightly surprised at boilers taking 1m lengths, but I know the
largest of our open fires would (but is unusually large for a domestic
fire).

Post by Bill Taylor
I still think it depends on the end use, so if a seller of cord is
selling to an end user to cut and split it is still firewood and
attracts 5%.

My interpretation of the requirement that the wrapping and packaging
be consistent with it's being firewood is that it should be suitable
for use without further work necessary.

But I accept that is open to interpretation.

Post by Bill Taylor
But if the seller wants to err on the side of caution
it's perfectly reasonable for him to charge 20% and the customer can
chose to pay it or go elsewhere.

This I completely agree with.

[Harry Davis]

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC
must be the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about
something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.po
rtal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&proper
tyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

I don't know how you work that one out. They come under 7.1.2.

See also 7.1.4, which gives examples of items rated at 5% when held out
for sale as fuel and supplied for use solely as fuel. These include "wood
logs", which are even listed separately from "firewood", presumably to
underline that "wood logs" may need sawing and splitting.

7.2 then gives examples of items which are always rated at 20%. These
include "forestry thinnings for fencing or staking" and "standing trees".

Harry

[Alex Heney]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 23:35:24 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis

Post by Alex Heney
On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:59:34 -0000, "Mrcheerful"

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Fredxx

Post by Mrcheerful

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying
firewood from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would
saw and split myself, for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August
2012: s2.1, on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining
"domestic use" as including use in "houses, flats or other
dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying
the wood for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested.
They both say that they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic
customer or otherwise, except if they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly
doubt that I would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I
imagine they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT
fraud? Or just a tort against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood,
and there seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

only on the delivery charge.

Is it not the same as books which are zero rated? Where P&P is
correspondingly zero rated?
Using the same argument delivery should also be subject to 5% VAT.

It may be that 'postage' is a different system to 'delivery' (such as
courier etc.)
I am struggling to find a bill that fulfills the requirements. HMRC
must be the people to ask, I found them very helpful when I rang about
something.

Indeed they are.
A quick search on their site for "firewood" bring up this link
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.po
rtal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000510&proper
tyType=document#P277_29699
===================================
7.1.2 Wood, peat and charcoal
A supply of wood, peat or charcoal that you hold out for sale solely
as fuel qualifies for the reduced rate provided that your customer
does not intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount
you supply.
7.1.3 Firewood
Ready-cut pieces of wood of a size suitable for use as fuel - such as
logs, short waste ends or damaged timber - are standard-rated if not
held out for sale specifically as firewood.
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
=====================================
So unsawn and unsplit logs are just not going to qualify.

I don't know how you work that one out. They come under 7.1.2.

I work that out by the final paragraph quoted, which applies to *both*
of the numbered paragraphs.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

I certainly don't have to collect my annual 2000 litres of central
heating oil in order to get the VAT reduced to 5%.

[Obadiah Binks]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Obadiah Binks

Harry

I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

I certainly don't have to collect my annual 2000 litres of central
heating oil in order to get the VAT reduced to 5%.

Then again you can't trundle down to the local shop and pick up your
2000 litres of fuel

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Obadiah Binks
I would guess that if it is delivered then 20% VAT would be correct.

I certainly don't have to collect my annual 2000 litres of central
heating oil in order to get the VAT reduced to 5%.

Then again you can't trundle down to the local shop and pick up your
2000 litres of fuel

I don't trundle down to the wood yard and pick up 1200kg of logs...

Had to dig about on the website of our log supplier to find what VAT rate
they charge as they quote prices are "all in" product, delivery, and VAT
(at 5%)...

[harry]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

They are crooks. They obviously intend to keep the money themselves.
They may even be too small to be VAT registered.

Fraud.
Threaten to report them to the tax man.
Or go somewhere else.

All my firewood is free. A good source is any place where stuff is
delivered on pallets. They often give them away.
You often see scrap wood in skips.

[Obadiah Binks]

Post by harry
All my firewood is free. A good source is any place where stuff is
delivered on pallets. They often give them away.

Which is where I used to get mine but remember that they usually
have the owners name stamped on them so it is theft.

[McKevvy]

Post by Obadiah Binks

Post by harry
All my firewood is free. A good source is any place where stuff is
delivered on pallets.  They often give them away.

Which is where I used to get mine but remember that they usually
have the owners name stamped on them so it is theft.

You will find that if you go around comapnies and offer to remove
their pallets for them -even for a nominal fee - they will gladly let
you do so. If they have to bin it then it costs them money.

McK.

[Alex Heney]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:33:36 -0800 (PST), harry

Post by harry

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

They are crooks. They obviously intend to keep the money themselves.

"Obviously" in just what way, exactly?

Presumably it is "obvious" because you have decided they are crooks,
and therefore they must be doing so - a rather circular argument.

Post by harry
They may even be too small to be VAT registered.

Unlikely.
There would be no point in them charging VAT at all in that case, they
would be better off just quoting an all-in price to the customer.

Post by harry
Fraud.
Threaten to report them to the tax man.

Who will come round and say "OK, they are doing exactly as they
should".

Post by harry
Or go somewhere else.
All my firewood is free. A good source is any place where stuff is
delivered on pallets. They often give them away.
You often see scrap wood in skips.

That is a different (and valid) argument.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by harry

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

They are crooks. They obviously intend to keep the money themselves.
They may even be too small to be VAT registered.
Fraud.

From the green fraudster of the group,. that is a bit rich.

[unknown]

Post by Harry Davis
Advice?

Report them to HMRC. You can bet your bottom dollar that they are not
paying 20% VAT to HMRC. i.e. it's a VAT swindle.

[Alex Heney]

Post by unknown

Post by Harry Davis
Advice?

Report them to HMRC. You can bet your bottom dollar that they are not
paying 20% VAT to HMRC. i.e. it's a VAT swindle.

Why would you think that, given that from what the OP described,
namely logs that he would saw and split himself, they *should* be
charging 20%.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Alex Heney

Post by unknown

Post by Harry Davis
Advice?

Report them to HMRC. You can bet your bottom dollar that they are not
paying 20% VAT to HMRC. i.e. it's a VAT swindle.

Why would you think that, given that from what the OP described,
namely logs that he would saw and split himself, they *should* be
charging 20%.

No, you are wrong. You are misinterpreting VAT Notice 701/19 (August 2012).
Section 7.1.2 makes it clear that supply of any wood (without limit on
length, split, or other characteristic) is eligible for the reduced rate if
held out for sale solely as fuel, provided that the customer does not
intend to resell it. This applies regardless of the amount supplied. Unlike
the claims you have made here the intent of the customer is a necessary
condition for the reduced rate.

Section 7.1.3 you appear to be cometely misinterpreting since it does not
define what firewood is. What it says is that even if wood is prepared by
cutting and splitting it is standard rated unless held out for sale as
fuel. It does not over rule 7.1.2.

[Alex Heney]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:04:13 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Alex Heney

Post by unknown

Post by Harry Davis
Advice?

Report them to HMRC. You can bet your bottom dollar that they are not
paying 20% VAT to HMRC. i.e. it's a VAT swindle.

Why would you think that, given that from what the OP described,
namely logs that he would saw and split himself, they *should* be
charging 20%.

No, you are wrong. You are misinterpreting VAT Notice 701/19 (August 2012).
Section 7.1.2 makes it clear that supply of any wood (without limit on
length, split, or other characteristic) is eligible for the reduced rate if
held out for sale solely as fuel, provided that the customer does not
intend to resell it.

What you are missing is
"'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it."

I interpret that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for
use as domestic firewood.

Post by Steve Firth
This applies regardless of the amount supplied. Unlike
the claims you have made here the intent of the customer is a necessary
condition for the reduced rate.

Only to the extent that the customer must not intend to resell it.

Whether the customer intends to put it on his fire, or whether he
intends to make carvings out of it to decorate his house does not
matter (and the seller cannot reasonably be expected to know that
anyhow).

Post by Steve Firth
Section 7.1.3 you appear to be cometely misinterpreting

That would be difficult, since I am not interpreting it at all.

Post by Steve Firth
since it does not
define what firewood is. What it says is that even if wood is prepared by
cutting and splitting it is standard rated unless held out for sale as
fuel. It does not over rule 7.1.2.

I have never suggested it might, because I have not been referring to
it at all.

[unknown]

Post by Alex Heney
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:04:13 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

[snip]

Post by Alex Heney
What you are missing is
"'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it."
I interpret that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for
use as domestic firewood.

Then your interpretation is incorrect.

Post by Alex Heney

This applies regardless of the amount supplied. Unlike the claims you
have made here the intent of the customer is a necessary condition for
the reduced rate.

Only to the extent that the customer must not intend to resell it.

The term you were searching for and failing to find is "yes, you are
correct."

Post by Alex Heney
Whether the customer intends to put it on his fire, or whether he
intends to make carvings out of it to decorate his house does not
matter (and the seller cannot reasonably be expected to know that
anyhow).

It matters a great deal, if the customer is intending to use the wood
for construction, art or a hobby then he must pay standard rate VAT.

Post by Alex Heney

Section 7.1.3 you appear to be cometely misinterpreting

That would be difficult, since I am not interpreting it at all.

Your comments about "suitable state for domestic firewood" can only have
come from 7.1.3, which is the part of the notice tha refers to
preparation of wood for burning. However it does so in a different
context to preceding sections of the notice. Either you are
misinterpreting that section or you are making up a requirement that is
not there, you choose which.

Post by Alex Heney

since it does not define what firewood is. What it says is that even if
wood is prepared by cutting and splitting it is standard rated unless
held out for sale as fuel. It does not over rule 7.1.2.

I have never suggested it might, because I have not been referring to
it at all.

"it must be in a suitable state for use as domestic firewood."

But I see we're down to the standard Heney "Humpty Dumpty" argument
where words mean what you want them to mean, not what you said.

[Alex Heney]

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:04:13 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth

[snip]

Post by Alex Heney
What you are missing is
"'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it."
I interpret that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for
use as domestic firewood.

Then your interpretation is incorrect.

You mean your interpretation is different to mine.

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney

This applies regardless of the amount supplied. Unlike the claims you
have made here the intent of the customer is a necessary condition for
the reduced rate.

Only to the extent that the customer must not intend to resell it.

The term you were searching for and failing to find is "yes, you are
correct."

No, because you were only partially correct.

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney
Whether the customer intends to put it on his fire, or whether he
intends to make carvings out of it to decorate his house does not
matter (and the seller cannot reasonably be expected to know that
anyhow).

It matters a great deal, if the customer is intending to use the wood
for construction, art or a hobby then he must pay standard rate VAT.

This is the bit you were incorrect in above, and are still incorrect.

The rules do not say anything about the intent of the customer apart
from the not reselling it bit.

It is the intent of the seller which matters.

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney

Section 7.1.3 you appear to be cometely misinterpreting

That would be difficult, since I am not interpreting it at all.

Your comments about "suitable state for domestic firewood" can only have
come from 7.1.3, which is the part of the notice tha refers to
preparation of wood for burning. However it does so in a different
context to preceding sections of the notice. Either you are
misinterpreting that section or you are making up a requirement that is
not there, you choose which.

I am not referring to 7.1.3 at all.

I am referring to the following paragraph
===============================
'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise
describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and
that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you
supply it.
===============================

I interpret the last part of that as meaning that it has to be in a
suitable state for use as firewood.

I can accept that is open to different interpretations, but I believe
my interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one.

Post by unknown

Post by Alex Heney

since it does not define what firewood is. What it says is that even if
wood is prepared by cutting and splitting it is standard rated unless
held out for sale as fuel. It does not over rule 7.1.2.

I have never suggested it might, because I have not been referring to
it at all.

"it must be in a suitable state for use as domestic firewood."

Which has nothing to do with para 7.1.3.

Post by unknown
But I see we're down to the standard Heney "Humpty Dumpty" argument
where words mean what you want them to mean, not what you said.

I have never, ever, used such an argument.

Why you think I might ever do so, never mind suggesting it to
be"standard" is beyond me.

[Peter Crosland]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)

Sounds dodgy to me. I would make a formal complaint to to HMR&C.

[Alex Heney]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:38:18 +0000 (UTC), Harry Davis

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.

Which is correct.

Post by Harry Davis
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.

It doesn't matter in the least what you are actually going to do with
the wood (or say you are).

It is what they are purporting to sell it as which matters.

If they are selling it *only* as firewood, then the lower rate
applies.

Otherwise the standard rate applies.

Post by Harry Davis
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?

Decide whether the total cost is good value for you, and pay it if so,
don't buy it if not.

Post by Harry Davis
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?

I don't imagine they have done it at all, so it is neither.

Post by Harry Davis
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)

What we found worthwhile was going to the local council - here
(Merthyr Tydfil) they charge £55 for a "load" (which is 1.25 tonnes)
of cut and split wood.

Whether they will have it available (and what types of wood) does
depend on what they have recently been felling/trimming of course -
and it will not be seasoned.

[Brian Gaff]

Do hmrc have an enforcement arm that one might be able to get to sort these
people out?
I mean, I'd imagine domestic fuel oil could be used to power an engine so
this would make it taxable at 20 percent I suppose.

Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Brian Gaff
Do hmrc have an enforcement arm that one might be able to get to sort these
people out?
I mean, I'd imagine domestic fuel oil could be used to power an engine so
this would make it taxable at 20 percent I suppose.

That's why its very illegal to fill your diesel car up with heating oil.

It works though.

Post by Brian Gaff
Brian

[unknown]

Post by Brian Gaff
I mean, I'd imagine domestic fuel oil could be used to power an engine so
this would make it taxable at 20 percent I suppose.

It depends what you use the engine for. I have a standby gneerator used
to provide power during outages. I run that on CH fuel which is taxed at
5%. That is legal use of CH fuel. If ICBA to turn the generator into a
CHP unit then I could use it instead of a CH boiler and thhe use of CH
fuel would still be legal.

It's only if the engine is in a vehicle that the use of CH fuel becomes
illegal.

I suspect it's illegal even if the vehicle is only used on private land
since red diesel is taxed at a higher rate than CH fuel.

[harry]

Post by Brian Gaff
Do hmrc have an enforcement arm that one might be able to get to sort these
people out?
 I mean, I'd imagine domestic fuel oil could be used to power an engine so
this would make it  taxable at 20 percent I suppose.

There is VAT on road fuel plus a lot more.
Non road fuel diesel/35secoil is dyed red.

[Fredxx]

Post by Harry Davis
I've enquired of two local companies regarding possibly buying firewood
from them, in the form of unsplit logs, which I would saw and split myself,
for use on our woodburner at home.
The VAT rate should be 5%. (Source: HMRC Notice 701/19, August 2012: s2.1,
on fuel for domestic use, and s3.2.2, defining "domestic use" as including
use in "houses, flats or other dwellings".)
Both companies insist on charging 20%.
I've offered to give them written confirmation that I am buying the wood
for domestic use as fuel, but they aren't interested. They both say that
they won't sell wood to anyone, domestic customer or otherwise, except if
they can charge VAT at 20%.
If I did pay four times as much VAT as I should, I strongly doubt that I
would be able to get my money back from the HMRC.
Advice?
If they do get someone to pay 20% who should only pay 5% (and I imagine
they have done that in loads of cases), is that VAT fraud? Or just a tort
against the customer?
(PS I've only recently encountered the world of buying firewood, and there
seem to be loads of sharp practices, but I digress.)
Harry

What you need to do is set yourself up as a non-profit company selling
firewood. Self employed would result in less paperwork.

Register for VAT.

Buy wood and have it transported to your home.

Reclaim 20% VAT from HMRC.

Sell the wood to yourself or wife and charge 5% VAT.

Give HMRC the 5% VAT.

One VAT return each quarter, probably a nil return for the Summer quarter!

Easy!!