Dell keyboard letters worn out - not a warranty item!

[Tiny Tim]

I posted this over on alt.sys.pc-clone.dell and uk.comp.sys.laptops a few
hours ago and thought I might get some useful view from this group, so sorry
to those that have already seen this thread elsewhere. I also posted some
info from Trading Standards as a reply in the original threads and will pop
that in here too as a reply to this message.....

I have a Dell Inspiron 8000 which is 2.5 years old. Several of the keys have
worn to the point where it is difficult to see what the letters are - the
"L" looks just like a ":" and "M" and "N" are almost indistinguishable.
Others are also disappearing. This is my own personal laptop and I'm the
only user. I'm very much a point and click surfer and do not do a great deal
of typing so the keyboard is not that heavily used.

I just filed a problem with Dell and haven been told this is not a warranty
claim, even though I have a 3 year on site warranty that cost me £199. I
fail to see why this problem is not covered. The keyboard is becoming near
to unusable and is therefore "broken" in my opinion. If I had a stuck key
they would fix it. It appears that even though they have failed to
design/build the lettering adequately that that is not sufficient
justification for a warranty claim.

This does not seem fair to me. I was not aware a keyboard was a consumable
item and expected to wear out. It is not exactly like a car tyre or clutch
that is expected to wear and be replaced. This is a design/build defect. I
have researched on the Dell Talk forums and I am not the only one to
experience this problem. Indeed, one person seems to have the identical
letters disappearing too.

I also have a 5 year old Dell Inspiron 7000 laptop, which I used for 2.5
years before passing it on to my girlfriend when I got the I8000. The keys
on that are still as good as new, so this is an I8000 problem, not a "Tim
Dodd" problem.

I fail to see on what grounds Dell can reject this as a warranty claim. What
are your views?

Thanks,
Tim.

[Tiny Tim]

Here's the gist of the thread as it has developed.......

For a PC some wear and tear may be no big deal as you can pick up a
keyboard for £10 and just plug it in. When the keyboard is an
integral part of the build, as in a laptop, that is not so straight
forward. I can't just nip into PC world and pick up a new keyboard
for my laptop and just pop it in.

While I appreciate your situation, the wearing of the letters is a
normal problem that is considered non-warranty in most cases. The same
method for imprinting your laptop keyboard is used on non-laptop
keyboards, so why would you expect it to be any different.
As someone else posted, call them and say that several keys are not
working properly - it will be replaced.

I will take that route if I have to but as a UK consumer there is certain
protection afforded me. I have looked at the Trading Standards website and
found some legislation that pertains to the purchase of computers, here....

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/havering/con1item.cgi?file=*ADV0055-1111.txt

The site mentions the Sale Of Goods Act 1979 and I quote from that ....

"The computer should be of a satisfactory quality, fit for its purpose and
as described. When deciding whether the computer is of a satisfactory
quality, its appearance, finish, durability, safety and freedom from even
minor defects can all be taken into account. If the computer is faulty, you
have a legal claim against the retailer of the computer, who should help you
to resolve any problems. "

Please note the "durability" remark in the SOGA. This laptop cost me well
over £2,000. I strongly believe that the keyboard should remain usable for
more than 2.5 years. I doubt that any consumer would argue with that
opinion.

Also, from
The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and The Unfair Terms in Consumer
Contracts Regulations 1999

"These laws allow you to challenge terms that may be unfair or unreasonable
to you as a consumer. The standard terms and conditions used by the retailer
should be written in clear language. It is illegal to have a contract term
that attempts to restrict a consumer's rights. In some cases your local
Trading Standards Department may be able to take action to prevent a company
from using unfair terms in its contracts."

Even if Dell do exclude wear and tear of a keyboard this does not seem
reasonab;e within the timeframes here. Hey look - I just typed a ";" instead
of an "l". That's the problem mow and it will only be getting worse over
time. Effing hell, now I'm typing "m"s instead of "n"s. These errors were
both legit and are down to the problems with the keyboard.

I shall put these points to Dell and if that doesn't improve matters I will
be taking up the matter with Trading Standards. I may as well contact BBC
Watchdog too. Have a nice day, Dell
--
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[martin]

Post by Tiny Tim
I shall put these points to Dell and if that doesn't improve matters I will
be taking up the matter with Trading Standards. I may as well contact BBC
Watchdog too. Have a nice day, Dell

Why not contact the trading standards office now, you only have 6
months before the three years are up. The longer they drag it out the
weaker your case.

[Adrian]

Post by Tiny Tim
I have a Dell Inspiron 8000 which is 2.5 years old. Several of the keys
have worn to the point where it is difficult to see what the letters
are - the "L" looks just like a ":" and "M" and "N" are almost
indistinguishable. Others are also disappearing.
I just filed a problem with Dell and haven been told this is not a
warranty claim, even though I have a 3 year on site warranty that cost
me £199. I fail to see why this problem is not covered. The keyboard is
becoming near to unusable and is therefore "broken" in my opinion.

No, it's wear and tear, and doesn't stop you using it.

Post by Tiny Tim
If I had a stuck key they would fix it.

A stuck key affects the actual functioning of the keyboard, a worn keycap
doesn't.

Post by Tiny Tim
This does not seem fair to me. I was not aware a keyboard was a
consumable item and expected to wear out. It is not exactly like a car
tyre or clutch that is expected to wear and be replaced.

It's *exactly* like a car tyre.

Post by Tiny Tim
This is a
design/build defect. I have researched on the Dell Talk forums and I am
not the only one to experience this problem. Indeed, one person seems
to have the identical letters disappearing too.

I'm losing the shift logo off the left shift key on my Latitude C600. Life's
tough. I know which key it is.

Post by Tiny Tim
I fail to see on what grounds Dell can reject this as a warranty claim.

Wear and tear.

[martin]

Post by Adrian

Post by Tiny Tim
I have a Dell Inspiron 8000 which is 2.5 years old. Several of the keys
have worn to the point where it is difficult to see what the letters
are - the "L" looks just like a ":" and "M" and "N" are almost
indistinguishable. Others are also disappearing.
I just filed a problem with Dell and haven been told this is not a
warranty claim, even though I have a 3 year on site warranty that cost
me £199. I fail to see why this problem is not covered. The keyboard is
becoming near to unusable and is therefore "broken" in my opinion.

No, it's wear and tear, and doesn't stop you using it.

Post by Tiny Tim
If I had a stuck key they would fix it.

A stuck key affects the actual functioning of the keyboard, a worn keycap
doesn't.

Post by Tiny Tim
This does not seem fair to me. I was not aware a keyboard was a
consumable item and expected to wear out. It is not exactly like a car
tyre or clutch that is expected to wear and be replaced.

It's *exactly* like a car tyre.

Post by Tiny Tim
This is a
design/build defect. I have researched on the Dell Talk forums and I am
not the only one to experience this problem. Indeed, one person seems
to have the identical letters disappearing too.

I'm losing the shift logo off the left shift key on my Latitude C600. Life's
tough. I know which key it is.

Post by Tiny Tim
I fail to see on what grounds Dell can reject this as a warranty claim.

Wear and tear.

a) ... for the purpose intended
b) ... *fair* wear and tear

PC keys that are unreadable after less than 3 years meet neither
criteria.

[Hopelessly]

Post by martin

Post by Adrian

Post by Tiny Tim
I fail to see on what grounds Dell can reject this as a warranty claim.

Wear and tear.

a) ... for the purpose intended
b) ... *fair* wear and tear
PC keys that are unreadable after less than 3 years meet neither
criteria.

That would depend on how much use the keyboard has seen - difficult to prove
either way. Also, whether the PC was used as a domestic device or as an
industrial device might have some bearing on the warranty (see the fine
print). It is not uncommon in my experience (in the UK) to see that the
warranty is voided if the product is used in a non-domestic sense. This
always intrigues me - what rights does a company have if they buy a vacuum
cleaner for office use? This is not domestic nor is it industrial use
exactly is it?

[martin]

Post by Hopelessly

Post by martin

Post by Adrian

Post by Tiny Tim
I fail to see on what grounds Dell can reject this as a warranty claim.

Wear and tear.

a) ... for the purpose intended
b) ... *fair* wear and tear
PC keys that are unreadable after less than 3 years meet neither
criteria.

That would depend on how much use the keyboard has seen - difficult to prove
either way. Also, whether the PC was used as a domestic device or as an
industrial device might have some bearing on the warranty (see the fine
print). It is not uncommon in my experience (in the UK) to see that the
warranty is voided if the product is used in a non-domestic sense. This
always intrigues me - what rights does a company have if they buy a vacuum
cleaner for office use? This is not domestic nor is it industrial use
exactly is it?

At least the first hurdle is passed. When we had problems with new
Dell stuff at work, Dell denied we existed and initially refused to
honour the warranty. Some pillock with dyslexia had been allowed to do
their records.

[dorothy.bradbury]

No that's just Dell Corporate UK who hide behind the US company.

o Dell could argue fair wear & tear
---- polished/shiny keys are particularly a non-warranty issue
---- loss of keyboard legends is potentially non-warranty also
o It's not a failure of function (keyboard), but of usability
---- albeit a somewhat irritating problem

Dell I7k's were built better & had more robust keyboard legends.

However, there is need for a reality check here:
o You paid 199ukp for an extended warranty
o How much is usability covered under that warranty
---- for a keyboard, frankly, Dell are dragging their feet
o Dell could simply send new keycaps or a keyboard
---- keycaps do exist, keyboards are <20ukp to them

Dell USA keyboards to retail are only ~45-50$US and often available
on Ebay in the USA for something around that price level, and in UK.
Note a US keyboard means you lose the UK-Pound-sign.

Send a Registered Letter to Dell UK, and frankly Dell USA.
They are changing a few things re responsiveness & customer experience
as so many corp & retail clients dumped them re India tech support and a
general incompetence at handling corporate warranty & such like.

You could post this is uk.comp.vendors actually, there may be some there
who have the keyboard caps available - at least the major repair shops. If
your machine was repaired under warranty for something else, ironically
Dell often replace keycaps that are worn - confirmed by colleagues in UK,
USA & Germany, both for corporate purchased & retail purchased laptops.

Aside re laptops: buy a piece of thick plastic to sit them on if not
desk-bound,
it reduces the twist on them which is a major cause of eventual failure.
Stops
the connectors being micro duty-cycled & the numerous board tracks too.
I recall a Mil test a while back on some proving the benefit of extra
bracing to
MTBF & basically reliability - was something like 7yrs vs 1.4yrs, huge
difference.
Ok, laptops probably have fewer boards & better cases, but there's a benefit
to it.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan for fans, books & other items
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/panaflo.htm (Direct)

[Tiny Tim]

Post by dorothy.bradbury
No that's just Dell Corporate UK who hide behind the US company.

<snip>

Post by dorothy.bradbury
You could post this is uk.comp.vendors actually, there may be some
there who have the keyboard caps available - at least the major
repair shops. If your machine was repaired under warranty for
something else, ironically Dell often replace keycaps that are worn -
confirmed by colleagues in UK, USA & Germany, both for corporate
purchased & retail purchased laptops.

<snip>

Thanks for the reply. I will try uk.comp.vendors. Dell are standing firm om
this despite threat of a small claims action for unsatisfactory durability.
Obviously an action is a bit point;ess if I can source keycaps for a few
quid.

[dorothy.bradbury]

Post by Tiny Tim
Obviously an action is a bit point;ess if I can source keycaps for a few
quid.

When my "Refurbished" Dell I7000 went in for a DC board, they did...
o TFT - not asked for, just because of 2 bad pixels
o Two cursor keycaps - not asked for, just because of print worn
o Mainboard - not asked for, no idea why
o Memory - fine, and 1 non-Dell which they replaced with new Dell?!
o Battery - new, UV marker one not returned, nothing wrong with old

The higher-model TFTs seem far better than the current ones, my
Dell 1100c has a lousy low-light blurred display vs the Dell I7000 15".

That said, they also did things I didn't want:
o Screen light seems to leek out by the hinges
---- ok perhaps a bit of plastic not perfectly put back correctly
o PCMCIA slots a bit tight
---- the double-stacked PCB or whatever isn't quite aligned perfectly

Oh, they did the DC-convertor board as originally requested.

I type very fast, and huge amounts in a day, but don't move the laptop
much (either lying on my side or similar). So keyboards get a lot of "finger
wipe" so I tend to polish them - despite nails, I don't lose legends.

So I think there IS a problem with some Dell keyboards.
My 1100c which replaced the I7000 has an inferior keyboard and I do wonder
if the keycaps are going to wear off - seems to be a different printing
method.

The company that did it was not Dell, but a company in Crewe which Dell I
assume outsource repairs to. Could simply be they pull keycaps off another
(otherwise faulty) keyboard - Dell don't always fit new parts remember.

Checked receipts, paperwork, does not say who they are or an address.
Someone should know, or have keycaps left over. Dell could at least offer
the keycaps at a nominal cost as a goodwill gesture instead of being dumb.

When the keyboard began to show mechanical wear, I just bought a USA one
since they would only sell me a UK one via Collect-n-Fit at 178ukp+VAT. Took
a while to import one, and lacks the pound-sign, but worked fine.

Ah, there is a laptop parts supplier for Dell & others:
o PC-Clones
o http://www.clonesuk.com/index.htm

If you ever do replace the keyboard yourself, the keyboard ribbon cable is a
thin
plastic film affair which goes into a Ziff-like socket on the board. I
recall you must
carefully unclick this socket and slide the plastic-film connection out,
then slide
the new one in similarly - square, true, carefully but positively. Easy to
wreck the
socket or the new keyboard connector, seen a few Dells like that on Ebay.
--
Dorothy Bradbury

[Tiny Tim]

Post by dorothy.bradbury

Post by Tiny Tim
Obviously an action is a bit point;ess if I can source keycaps for a
few quid.

When my "Refurbished" Dell I7000 went in for a DC board, they did...

<snip>

Post by dorothy.bradbury
o PC-Clones
o http://www.clonesuk.com/index.htm
If you ever do replace the keyboard yourself, the keyboard ribbon
cable is a thin
plastic film affair which goes into a Ziff-like socket on the board. I
recall you must
carefully unclick this socket and slide the plastic-film connection
out, then slide
the new one in similarly - square, true, carefully but positively.
Easy to wreck the
socket or the new keyboard connector, seen a few Dells like that on Ebay.

Dorothy, you are a star. Thanks again :-)